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        General >> Problems >> Engine starts then dies
        
(Message started by: Pjot on Mar 9^th, 2009, 1:15am)

Title: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 9^th, 2009, 1:15am

Hello,I have read this forum for a few days for clues on how the engine works on my car. A friend of mine gave me his Scorpio 95mod 2,0L 16valves because the engine died when it feel like it. My friend has to call for help to change tires, so this car was not for him anymore.

Symptoms: Starts right away when left overnight. First minute I can hardly see any exhaust coming out the rear pipe and engine running smoothly. Then the smoke is VERY visible but still the engine is running smoothly till it completly shut down. Sometimes it hesitates for a few seconds before it shut down. The ignition plugs is soted, (parden my english, I`m from Norway), which as I remember is caused by to rich air/fuel mixture.

There are good sparks at all times.

Measured the fuel pressure and it was constant at 3 bar as long as the engine was running. It reached 3,2bar the moment it died, and also 3,2 before I started the engine. So I`m sure the FPR works fine, as well as fuel pump relay and fuel cut of switch.

This draw my attention to the injectors, I listen to the engine and I can hear a weak clicking from the injectors. Kind of the same sound as a relay. Thinking this is the sound of injectors opening and closing. After engine dies this sound dissapears, when cranking the engine I sometimes hear a click and the engine starts for a split second.

Normally the engine starts first turn of the key and runs for about 5-10min. After that it fires up but dies immediately.

There is a constant 12v supply to the injectors when the engine won`t start. I haven`t measured how it is when it runs, but it dosen`t seem right.

Hope someone can help me with this problem, cause I can`t solve this on my own.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Tompion on Mar 9^th, 2009, 2:40am

Hi and welcome, with regard the constant 12volts to the injectors, this is correct, it’s the earth that is switched on/off by the engine control. I think the fuel rail pressure should drop about 0.5bar at tickover. You can check that by pulling off the hose & plugging the end that goes from the pressure regulator to the inlet manifold – not that I’d expect it to cause the problem you have if it wasn’t dropping the pressure.

Dave

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Jonnycab on Mar 9^th, 2009, 3:23am

Lambda sensor or blocked cat ? :-/...... :)

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 9^th, 2009, 10:11am

on 03/09/09 at 02:40:06, Tompion wrote:

Hi and welcome, with regard the constant 12volts to the injectors, this is correct, it’s the earth that is switched on/off by the engine control.
Dave

I have a constant 12v when I measure between the two pins in the connector to an injector, so I have a constant earth also. So the engine control (ECU??) is not switching at all. I will measure again later today as the car will start again.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 9^th, 2009, 10:17am

on 03/09/09 at 03:23:09, Jonnycab wrote:

Lambda sensor or blocked cat ? :-/...... :)

Is there possible to measure the lambda sensor with minimal equipment?? Where is it located?

Blocked cat? You think someone have put a cat in the exhaust?, the pipe ain`t that big. A rat maybe??

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by scorpio_man on Mar 9^th, 2009, 10:51am

hi there

the lambda (pre cat) in at the bottom of the exhaust heat shield.

check it with a multi meter set to 2 volts. use the multi plug which is on the n/s inner wing. can't remember the wire colours of hand but it's not the 2 that are the same colour (white?).

btw, the lambda is screwed into the cat.

hth

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by adamn on Mar 9^th, 2009, 4:50pm

hi,

blocked cat-alyzator (rat-a-lyzer :) ) ? hmm, don't think so (for this particular case). ussually it will come with some noticeable noise.

dead lambda? the it should go to LOS, try disconnecting the front lambda connector.

12V to the injectors - good. Should be there all the time (key on). EEC controls the ground pin (low side driver) - if still GND = bad, should be NC, use current probe to check it. Do not attempt to connect the injector directly to ground, you will kill it. If it is constantly connected to +12V/GND it will destroy itself (the coil can sustain it just for a very short period of time)

definitely - do an OBD scan, check LTFR values.
if your injectors go bad, you should get a DTC for that also.

I think, your problem is in the wiring looms. Might be the engine wiring, but I had similiar problem (are you really sure you got good spark?? do you have HV adaptor and oscilloscope to check it when running?) and my problem was in the main wiring going from EEC to EDIS and main engine connector.
there was only one way how to repair it - replacing the whole thing. (see the other thread)
if it is shorted, you will probably not find it using the simple "beep" check method. a "few minute" symptom of yours looks like the wires need to warm up and then it will short out.

well, hth -edit-

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 10^th, 2009, 2:02am

Do you know where I can buy a OBD scanner? If it`s not to expencive I think I just buy one. Is it just a plug in one end and USB port in the other end. Where can I download the software?

I only got about five minutes with the car today, I measured that injectorplugs had constant ground as well. The engine did not run as long as it used to, maybe because I fiddled with the wiring and shut down the engine to measure. it would not restart, just firing up for a second then die.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by adamn on Mar 10^th, 2009, 12:10pm

hi,

go to www.obd-2.com, you can pay using paypal
you might want to buy a TriCom product, it is working with your car (I have the same).
and you will also get CAN bus too (useful for newer cars).
don't get confused, it does not usb, just rs232, but you might use usb/com adapter

about your problem - go thru following thread:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1110971001

all symptoms you have look like the wiring is faulty.
disconnect EEC and then measure with ohmmeter or "beep" test if you
have ground short circuit at injectors (disconnect injector connectors also).
If you have constant ground there only if EEC is connected, then
it might be (just might be !) bad, but I think it is all in the wires !

Or the EEC might be just measuring the continuity of the circuit and then
you will find weak ground connection at injector connector, but this
won't allow enough current to flow through to activate the inj.
So definitely you should measure the current going through the wire to injector,
and measure the wires between EEC and injectors.

but - if it does have the symptoms, like it will start and then die, and again,
it is not the problem with injectors. no.
It is a general wiring problem, try to crank the engine and check the PIP signal
(if PIP is missing, then the fuel pump does NOT work also).

a.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by adamn on Mar 10^th, 2009, 12:14pm

btw.

are you sure the clicking sound comes from injectors?
if it is continuous (periodical), it might be just some relay (it does click when key is on and engine is running or not,both cases).

use stetoscope to check the source of the clicking.
it also might be the hydraulic valve tappets, if they are dead
(I have one on my engine, it sounds like a sewing machine, have to change it soon).

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 10^th, 2009, 3:49pm

on 03/10/09 at 12:14:37, ad**n wrote:

I`m not 100% sure it`s the injectors that make that clicking noise, but it comes from that area. It is the same sound as poor valves, but it this case I think it`s not. Because the sound only appears when engine is running or just before it fires up. If the valves is responsable for the clicking it should be there at all times when cranking the engine or am I wrong?

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 10^th, 2009, 3:53pm

on 03/10/09 at 12:10:31, ad**n wrote:

The fuel pump works fine because there is a constant 3bar at the injector rail.

Think you are right about the wiring. It looks like it`s in perfect condition, but you never know. Where is the EEC located and what does it look like?

Thank for the link on the OBD scan, will have a look at it.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Snoopy on Mar 10^th, 2009, 4:07pm

The EEC is located above the glove box compartment ( On RHD cars)and is a silver box and held in with some security rivets which may need drilling out . The plugs are easily removed. THESE (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/emmanuals.htm) pages may help.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 10^th, 2009, 11:21pm

Thanks Snoopy I found it. Those pages helped alot. Thank you.

I was wrong about having constant gnd, I have contant 12volts between the two plugs to each injector. If I measure between plus on plug and neg on battery I have 12v, between neg on plug and GND I have about 18kohms when switch is on. There is no contact at all when the eec is disconnected. but 18kohms is very much so I don`t know what to think of that. Maybe it`s normal I don`t know.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 11^th, 2009, 1:07am

The clicking sound I talked about I`m 95% sure it`s from the injectors. I removed the fuelrail to have a visual on the fuel coming out of the injectors. Every time the click comes there was a little splasj of fuel on cylinder 4. I couldn`t see anything from cylinder 2 and 3. I didn`t get the fuelrail all the way of so I didn`t get a visual on cylinder 1. The splasj from cylinder 4 was greater that I thought it would be. Thinking there would be a little mist of fuel, but there was two beams of fuel coming out. Kind of what you get if you hold your finger in front of the garden hose, on a smaller scale of course.

Didn`t get the engine running for long today. I shut it of after a minute or so to measure, it did not restart.

What`s next to do? Rewiring the four GND from the eec to the injectors?

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 11^th, 2009, 1:12am

The engine didn`t run as smoothly as it used to. A little humpy in lack of a better word. I could feel it shaking when sitting in drivers seat. Felt like it was running on 3 cylinders. The spark was not as strong as it has been, maybe because of all the sot.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 11^th, 2009, 2:30pm

on 03/09/09 at 10:51:14, scorpio_man wrote:

I checked the lamda sensor. (post cat, the one under the hood with the exhaustmanifold.) There is no 2v between any of the four wires. It`s 24 ohms between the two white ones when engine is hot. Did I understand it correctly that I disconnect the lambdasensor and measure the wiring from the lambdasensor.?? The engine run smoothly again today. No difference when lambda were connected or not. Could a defect lamdasensor causing the engine to run rich and stall.?

I will check the pre cat lambda sensor later.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 11^th, 2009, 2:35pm

Fuel was coming out of all the injectors when engine is running, when the injectors are shutting down the engine stalls, (of course). The problem with the engine stalling must be related to the injectors. Do the signal dissapear? or is there a faulthy eec box.??? Where is the PIP signal coming from and how to measure it?

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by scorpio_man on Mar 11^th, 2009, 3:34pm

on 03/11/09 at 14:30:38, Pjot wrote:

hi there

the ones in the engine bay are the pre cat ones.

you need to keep the lambda sensor plugged in, just use the plugs to access the wires.

with the engine running and hot, you should get readings from about 0.2 - 0.9volts.

hth

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 12^th, 2009, 6:57pm

Then my lambda sensor must be malfunctioning. Can anyone test what happens if they unplug the pre cat lambda sensor? It made no difference on my car, but that may be because it`s not working.

Anyway, the sparks shut down yesterday I will try new coilpacks and wiring. The plugs is no longer sootening (is that a word?). I believe it is more than one error on this car. Only option left is an OBD scanning I suppose.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 13^th, 2009, 12:12am

The spark is back today, it was me not connecting the main plug on the engine loom. The engine was running smoothly for about 15minutes today. I did measure the lambda when engine was at normal working temperature. It was steady in 0,14volt. This should go up and down beetween 0,2-0,9, is this correct? So probably my lambda is broken, can this cause the engine to stall??

When I pulled of the plug to the lambda the engine started to heavely smoking from the exhaust. It has done this before and then stalled within a minute. Today it went back to normal and stalled much later.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Cosray on Mar 13^th, 2009, 8:13am

on 03/10/09 at 23:21:20, Pjot wrote:

Pjot, on each INJ you have 2 pins; if you really measure 12V constant between each individual INJ's 2 pins, then you have a problem: between each set of pins on each INJ you should have zero V when engine not running and ON/OFF 12V when running.

(Friend of mine devised a simple testbox, consisting of 4 12V LEDs, connected to each INJ on the INJ Groundside (the pin NOT connected to the battery) and Ground. With engine running, one sees a constant flickering pattern, representing grounding of each INJ line by the EEC. When stalled, all 4 would light up unless there was an open line in the Plus. If the problems persists, this simple device might be worth copying.)

Let's be clear on the measuring since the INJ circuit is rather basic. In the PLUS line there are 4 main suspects: Fuse F37, Connector C621 bottomside of Fusebox, Connector C110 and Splice S31, since all of those carry spike-type signals. The EEC pulls each of the other 4 pins to Ground to make the INJ open and work.

Since all 4 INJ are always directly connected (so NOT switched) to the battery through Fuse F37, they MUST always carry 12V one 1 pin against chassis. Please measure.

Colourmark those pins. Pull Fuse F37. Disconnect battery. Now measure all other 4 pins against chassis with an Ohmmeter. The reading should be high but equal on all 4 since the EEC is off and that line should be 'open'.

Now measure with the Ohmmmeter from the cold side (= the non-battery-side) of Fuse F37 (Pulled!) to each INJ pin that you previously marked. Should be almost zero (you are now measuring loom resistance)

If you measure higher Ohms say from 2 Ohms up then Splice S31 is suspect. It is known to corrode and behave unreliably under load. It is in the engine loom, away from the INJ towards battery, follow the loom.

Also suspect is Connector C110, which sits near the shock and looks like a square box with a screw on top.

This will eliminate errors from the INJ PLUS side.

The Groundside is more difficult since all INJ are grounded by the EEC. Best is having a friend assist you; one on the INJ side, on on the EEC.

Once you have the EEC out (battery disconnected) you can measure from the pins of the big multiplug pins 75, 101, 74, and 100 what resistance you find between the NON-marked INJ pins. You are now measuring the groundcircuit to the EEC for all 4 INJ. It should be almost zero. If not: trouble in that lead.

If no abberations are found in this basic circuitry, all that's left to do is thouroughly cleaning all mentioned connectors and look for software or sensor failures.

I did find a bad S31 splice this way.

Here's the schematic: http://cid-eb36f845ea9b8fb6.skydrive.live.com/self.aspx/WIRING%20DIAGRAMS/ENGINE%20CONTROL%202-0L%208V-16V%20%7C5MANUAL%7C6%20PRE03-96.pdf

HTH,
Ray

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 13^th, 2009, 11:03am

Thank you for your input, will follow your description as soon as I come home. This weekend it`s all about ski, snow and after-ski.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 16^th, 2009, 2:32pm

When I started my car on friday it started as usual, but it didn`t stall at all. It was at idle for 25min before I shut it down myself. This was a new record for 3 or 4 weeks. Started it yesterday and it was at idle for 50minutes and didn`t stall at all. Took it for a drive today, (what a wonderful car), and all went well. Drove about 12kilometres. Shut of the engine in my garage and started it with no problem a minute later. Waited five minutes and it didn`t start. Fired up and stall again and again.

Is it possible that it is some moisture present in the fusebox that still isn`t completely dried out. (Battery side fusebox.) It`s about a month since the last raindrop falled on the car.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Cosray on Mar 16^th, 2009, 3:13pm

on 03/16/09 at 14:32:37, Pjot wrote:

Is it possible that it is some moisture present in the fusebox that still isn`t completely dried out. (Battery side fusebox.) It`s about a month since the last raindrop falled on the car.

The batteryside Fusebox is easy to take out and use a hairdryer on. Check the contacts at bottom; see my above posting:

Let's be clear on the measuring since the INJ circuit is rather basic. In the PLUS line there are 4 main suspects: Fuse F37, Connector C621 bottomside of Fusebox, Connector C110 and Splice S31, since all of those carry spike-type signals. The EEC pulls each of the other 4 pins to Ground to make the INJ open and work.

It is apparent from your writing that CHANGE is going on in your vehicle. Since it is a 14-year old outdoor computer on wheels, most of its electrics, connectors, splices are highly, repeat: highly suspect.

By now its c. 10,000 contact surfaces are corroded, vibrated loose, crimped cables are slipping and their insulation is brittle causing crosstalk and leakage.

HTH, Ray

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Simmo on Mar 16^th, 2009, 5:17pm

on 03/16/09 at 15:13:23, Cosray wrote:

[
It is apparent from your writing that CHANGE is going on in your vehicle. Since it is a 14-year old outdoor computer on wheels, most of its electrics, connectors, splices are highly, repeat: highly suspect.

By now its c. 10,000 contact surfaces are corroded, vibrated loose, crimped cables are slipping and their insulation is brittle causing crosstalk and leakage.

HTH, Ray

Well that's sure cheered us all up !!. ::) ::)

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Cosray on Mar 16^th, 2009, 5:23pm

on 03/16/09 at 17:17:54, Simmo wrote:

Well that's sure cheered us all up !!. ::) ::)

Yes Simmo, let's all stand up and face the music...

Wish we could buy them brandnew...

Ray

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by gozz on Mar 16^th, 2009, 10:17pm

There's many a good tune played on an old fiddle,just a matter of keeping it in tune 8)
GOZZ.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Cosray on Mar 16^th, 2009, 10:29pm

... in Dutch we have a saying "how to keep all frogs in the wheelbarrow while driving" sounds appropriate, 'least for my Scorpio... can you see them havin' a good time? ;D

Ray

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 23^rd, 2009, 7:59pm

on 03/13/09 at 08:13:44, Cosray wrote:

The car won`t stop and is running just fine for the moment. I cleaned the Connector C110 and it works well. I believe it`s just a matter of time before it stalls again but there is a hope.

I still measure constant 12v between the two pins that are connected to the INJ. But the engine runs fine. Are you sure it`s not supposed to be this way? I guess there is a possibility that the 12v signal is not strong enough to open the injectors.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 23^rd, 2009, 8:03pm

I can`t follow your description when the engine is running like it should, or can I???? ???

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Cosray on Mar 23^rd, 2009, 8:14pm

Hi Pjot,

when the engine runs your measuring equipment is not fast enough to see the voltage go up and down from 0 to 12V between the INJ pins; that's why my friend made the LED indicator box.

If your Multimeter is on DC it will not cover the change; if it is on AC it will get confused because of the DC component. Hard to explain, but a multimeter will not read properly INJ voltages with a running engine.

Important is it's running noww. When it stalls the voltage reading is important.
Make sure your CKP and CPS sensor are OK.
HTH,
Ray

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 23^rd, 2009, 8:53pm

Think you misunderstood me. The engine is not actually running when I measure. I switch the ignition on, (whitout starting the engine) and unplug the injectors. Then I measure on the two pins. The engine was running just before I did this and started again when i connected the plugs and cranked the engine.

The engine is running well without the CPS (cam position sensor), I believe this is the sensor on the top away from the grill.

CKP sensor. Is this the sensor that is on the bottom of the engine. I don`t know the english word for it, I`ll try to explain. The pistons are attached to the piston rods who is attached to the ????? The heavy thing that rotates. Sorry not easy to explain but I think you know what I mean. :-[

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Tompion on Mar 24^th, 2009, 12:59am

Yes the CPS is on top, it controls the precise timing of the injectors but the engine will run without it.
Be careful not to trap the wire under the coil cover.

The CKP is close to the oil filter.

Yes, when ignition is on there is a permanent feed to the injectors + side. If you look in the black cover over the injectors you will find the + wires for all injectors are spliced together so it has to be the – side that is controlled by the ECU.
The splice on my 2.3 is a pressure splice, so worth unwrapping to check how good it is.

Dave

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Oct 19^th, 2009, 8:57pm

Hi guys, I`m back. My scorpio ran fine for about six and a half months, but now it have the same symptoms as before. A couple of weeks before it died the signal lamp for ABS and traction control appeared in the dashboard. I have no ABS and no traction control. Can this have anything to do with the engine stalling?? Will order a OBD scan right away.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Jonnycab on Oct 20^th, 2009, 9:32am

Not sure if this has been mentioned before as I've only briefly re-read the whole post, but have you checked the engine wiring loom (fuel cut off loom) for any breaks/cracked insulation, especially on top of the engine (coil packs) & where it goes around the front of the the inlet manifold (ECT sensor) & down to the crank shaft sensor.

A friend recently had a similar problem & it turned out to be the loom. It was pretty bad on top, but it was the lower part that was completely rotten.

The pictures below are of my friends old loom.....this is the part that goes to the crank sensor, oil pressure sensor, ECT & temp guage sender.....lots of bare & broken wiring that was all shorting together :o

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i101/jonnycab/P6020466.jpg

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i101/jonnycab/P6020463.jpg

Hope this helps :)

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Oct 20^th, 2009, 12:50pm

They look fine, but I didn`t take the loom out and dismantle it. It could be bad inside. For the moment I wait for my OBD to arrive and maybe this will shed some light to my problems.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Oct 20^th, 2009, 2:21pm

I have started to take out the entire fuel cut of loom. Having problems to find and access the crank shaft sensor. Where is it and what do I have to take out to access it? I believe that it is the crank shaft sensor or the wiring to it that cause my problems. As I understand the crank shaft sensor is the one that tells the computer when to fire the injectors? Do the injectors fire every turnover of the engine while the spark is on every two turns?

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Jonnycab on Oct 20^th, 2009, 3:54pm

The crank sensor is just above the oil filter, so you'll have to get under the car to get access to it ;)

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Tompion on Oct 20^th, 2009, 4:16pm

on 10/20/09 at 14:21:47, Pjot wrote:

The crank shaft sensor is for the spark on every turn, 2 cylinders at a time.
See my previous post re the injectors.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Alastair on Oct 29^th, 2009, 6:26pm

Hi Pjot
This could also be caused by a problem with the signal from the ECU to the Fuel Pump Relay. This signal provides a 12 volt supply to the pump safety switch and then to the pump. This signal is provided from the EDIS unit to the ECU (black and white wire) and can be checked as follows: -
Pin 1 EDIS to Pin 48 PCM (ECU) - black and white
A four channel scope
Channel 1 EDIS positive - Ignition feed
Channel 2 EDIS ground
Channel 3 PIP signal
Channel 4 Crankshaft Sensor

good luck

Alastair

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Nov 26^th, 2009, 1:07am

I have unwrapped the entire wireloom and found many cracks on the insulation. One of the cables from the crank sensor was pretty bad. Then I replaced nearly all the cables with new ones and thought to myself I have found the error on the car. But lucky me this was not the case. The symptoms are still the same. The engine starts fine, but will cut out in minutes.

The injectors do not fire as they should. Sometimes when the engine is running I hear a severe clicking sound from the injectors, the sound dissapear suddenly and there is no differense in how the engine are running. Is it possible that the injectors are worn out??

I bought a OBD lead but I havent figured it out yet. I get no contact with the car.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Dec 29^th, 2009, 3:25am

Okey, the scorpio died again after a couple weeks. I have another scorpio and have switched crank sensor, PCM, wireloom, injectors, coilpacks, pre cat lambda, tempsensor on air intake and more.

Still the engine is not running at all. When I crank it the engine fire the injectors on time only. I have spark but the injectors don`t deliver fuel. Fuelpressure OK. This car is starting to wear me out.

What next? Is there any chance the pcm box get a signal from pats and refuse to start.?? I have put in a new wire for the starter as the old one didn`t work.

Bought an OBD lead from Alex but it won`t work on eather of the two scorpios, I`m lost. Please help.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Dec 31^st, 2009, 3:24am

on 10/29/09 at 18:26:34, Alastair wrote:

Where is the EDIS unit located??

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by scorpio_man on Dec 31^st, 2009, 4:32am

hi there

it's on the inner wing behind the screen wash bottle.

hth

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Jan 1^st, 2010, 2:20pm

on 12/31/09 at 04:32:47, scorpio_man wrote:

hi there

it's on the inner wing behind the screen wash bottle.

hth

My english is not that good. What is inner wing and what does the edis unit look like. Is there four wires connected to it?

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by gozz on Jan 1^st, 2010, 9:38pm

It's a flat black plastic box 11cm X 6cm with a boss protruding from into which a 12 pin multiplug is fitted,the boss should have EDIS4 on it.The unit is held by two screws at diagonal corners.The inner wing is the piece of thin metal between the engine and the suspension strut onto which various connectors and the coolant tank etc are fixed.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Jan 2^nd, 2010, 2:49am

Thank you guys, I found it. Replacing the edis unit did not help eather.

Quick update: I have a good signal to coilpacks and a good spark on every turn. This tells me that crank shaft sensor is working. So the error must be on the fuel injection side.

The injectors are working (tested in another car) but don`t get the signal to fire. The engine do not start at all anymore. Fuel pressure is ok. I have a 12v positive on the injectors at all time. It must be missing the signal from the pcm box.

I suspect the error is not on the negative wire on each injector because it is not likely that all four are broken and suddenly not all at the same time.

Is it possible that the pcm box is not grounded good enough? Would there still be a spark if it`s not?

There is not long before I find a old school carburator and fit in this engine.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Cosray on Jan 2^nd, 2010, 12:03pm

Re: Engine starts then dies

Hi Pjot, the EDIS has 12 contacts.
IMHO there are 4 important leads to the EEC-V (3 in a shielded cable) which may get corrupted as they are packed in the infamous engineloom travelling near the hot exhaustpipes along the lower rightwingbeam.
They carry the PIP, IDM, SAW signals and GND/Shield.

They caused problems on my EDIS-to-EEC-V connection.

So I cut them at the EDIS and simply took 3 wires (unshielded for test) to the corresponding EEC-V contacts in the footwell, thus simply bypassing the existing wires.

It turns out there was a short against shield from the PIP wire, causing the EEC-V NOT to fire the INJ.

Once that wire was replaced i.e. bypassed everything worked fine.

The confusing thing is that the EDIS can function independently BUT in order to fire the INJ the EEC-V must produce the properly timed signals and ground the INJ.

Also I found that, since the INJ are ALWAYS ON connected the battery PLUS (not switched by the contact) fiddling with the EEC-V and the EDIS would cause the EEC-V to "hang" for 24 hours or so!

So even when I had created a correct solution, the engine would not fire -- but 24 hours later it would! Apparently it took that long to have a built-up charge leak away from the EEC-V.

All because the INJ are always under 12 V and connected to the respective ports of the EEC-V so when you take away a GND or other leads while the INJ feed the EC-V through their respective GND leads, a charge may keep the EC-V blocked for some hours.

So whenever you exchange components connected to EDIS and EEC-V make sure to disconnect the battery or your improvements will take a day or so to work! I used a big old switch on the battery just for this testing.

You might also decide to take out the proper fuse instead -- but do disconnect or your testing and corrections will drive you mad as the expected resulkt shows up a day late...

Find some links below that may be of assistance.
Ray

http://cid-eb36f845ea9b8fb6.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/WIRING%20DIAGRAMS

http://rockledge.home.comcast.net/~rockledge/RangerPictureGallery/DIS_EDIS.htm

http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/edis.html

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1110971001;start=45

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 1^st, 2010, 6:23pm

Thanks for the info. Maybe I`m getting a little confused here. All info I find on how the EDIS operates it`s about the sparks and coils. The injectors are never mentioned. I still got a god spark but the injectors are failing.

Is the EDIS also sending pip signal to pcm box to fire the injectors? Is this the same signal as the coil is using? If so my problem would not be with the missing pip signal.

So it boils down to this, the crank sensor is sending signal as it should because the sparkplugs is working. The injectors are working, (tryed in another car)
The wireloom is working, (tryed in another car)

The four individual negativ lead from pcm box to injectors are probably working since there is little chance for all of them stop working simultaniusly.

And Cosray did you have spark when you had the problem mentioned above in this tread?

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Cosray on Mar 1^st, 2010, 9:00pm

Hi Pjot:

Is the EDIS also sending pip signal to pcm box to fire the injectors? Is this the same signal as the coil is using? If so my problem would not be with the missing pip signal. NO

These signals are altoghether different. The PIP signal stemming from the EDIS (the coils' inductive backfire) controls the EEC operating the INJ.

The EDIS and coils and CPS are wired independently. The EDIS does not need the EEC to fire the sparkplugs. The EDIS's PIP signal PLUS many other sensors tell the EEC how to advance or retard the EDIS's sparks depending on laodd, speed, shift, mix etc.

So you may have sparks -- but no INJ opening. The problem is in the 3 wires/leads from/to the EDIS and the EEC in a grounded shield. Once the EEC gets no PIP it shuts off the fuel pump too.

So most probably your problem is in the 3 wires to/from the EDIS and EEC in the grounded shielded loom. Just bypass them from EDIS to EEC and it works. The loom runs past the hottest part of the engine and their isolation crumbles and shorts to ground. The EEC gets no PIP etc. etc. Read my earlier links carefully; it's all in there.

Ask an electronics guy. HTH -- Good luck, Ray

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 5^th, 2010, 6:46pm

Thanks alot Ray.
It seems like this solved my problem. The engine did not go any longer than 2 minutes since desember, but now it is still running after 45min.

This leads to my next question. Do I have to use a shield cable or does it work correctly without?

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Cosray on Mar 5^th, 2010, 10:05pm

Good it works now!
The cabling will function electrically without
grounded shielding wire but is prone to more interference from switches and sparks.
Any radioshop will sell 3-lead shielded wire = professional microphone-cable). The wire-gauge can be small since no current is transferred along, just signals.
HTH, Ray

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 6^th, 2010, 12:51pm

Thanks for the tip. I will go and buy a shielded cable today.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Cosray on Mar 6^th, 2010, 6:47pm

Good news then, at last. I know how you must feel as I did after months of struggling, measuring, deducting and going crazy.

Pjot, make sure when you make alterations to the EDIS -EEC circuits as you are planning to do - to ALWAYS disconnect the battery MINUS (easiest).

If you do NOT do this, the EEC-innards will be confused (because the INJ are still permantly connected to PLUS and the EEC-ports).

Your EEC will not work for one day, regardless of whether you made the right alterations to the cabling, as it needs to leak away unwanted charges.

Very confusing, highly irritating and confusing.
I know: I have been there myself and learned the hard way by deducting...

You assume it is the PATS, you assume it is bad weather, it is the bad ghosts - but please disconnect your battery when working on these circuits or you will go crazy.

HTH, Ray

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 7^th, 2010, 1:13am

I did disconnect the battery as you previously mentioned. This also gave me the clue I needed to be confident this was the problem. Because the car always started first turn when left for 24hours or so.

But the story do not end here, a new problem appeared. The engine was running quite low at idle and a little rough. I thought it was running rough because of the low idle. I knew how to fix the idle problem, (the wires to the air sensor above the TPS) but to my suprise the engine was still running rough. The idle speed is back to normal. So here is what I have done:

I noticed that when I pull the plug to the injector on cylinder 4 the engine was more "balanced". So then I pull the spark cable on cylinder 1. It appears that cylinder 1 is not running. I have a good spark so this draw my attention to the injector.

All of the injectors were wet when I took them off except inj.1. Assuming it was a wire problem I replaced the neg wire from inj. to pcm box to no avail.

Maybe it was the injector itself. So I switched inj.1 with inj.4 and the problem was still with cylinder1. Injector is working.

I measured 12v on the pos side and even replaced this cable also. No avail.

Thinking of replacing the pcm box tomorrow, and maybe the entire wireloom. I have two scorpio`s.

I hope the neg. wire was busted and caused the pcm to "hang" after the problem was fixed and it will work tomorrow.

Thanks again for all the help I recieved in this forum.

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 10^th, 2010, 10:26am

Still only running on 3cylinders. I tried to swap the pcm box, but still no luck. The way I see it the problem must be in the connection between pcm box and injector. I will have a look at the plug that goes into the pcm box. Any other ideas?

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Cosray on Mar 10^th, 2010, 5:29pm

Hi Pjot, the bad news is the main-engine-loom.

It has hit me several times by blowing up the sparkcoil for cyl. 1-5;when parked make the windshieldwipers move thereby activating the alarm; introducing a minimal voltage on one of the rear ABS lines which run through it causing the ABS-light to come and block both ABS and TCS... make the dash light up with NO key in etc. ad infinitum.

The suspect location is quite wellknown: directly next to the engineblock, below the exhaust, on the chassis-beam, next to the righthand wheelwell... If you would carefully open the loom-mantle the wires will stare at you with brittle, open strands... sick.

All you can do now is bypass the neg. wire (not the plus since you say you have 12V) from the INJ to the EEC-connectorblock, after finding, cutting and isolating said wire from the INJ and EEC-side.

I will send you a photo soon... nightmare. http://tinyurl.com/yh6yy27

HTH, Ray

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 13^th, 2010, 1:42am

The reason why the injector number one was not firing was the plug that sits on top of the injector. It was quite loose and all work well now. Finally.

Feel like I graduated in scorpio injection problems all thanks to you guys. :) :) :)

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Cosray on Mar 13^th, 2010, 2:14pm

Golly Piot: you must be glad... noticing just over a year ago you started this post...

Good I could help you with my bad experience on looms... hope yours will not crumble and rot any further as mine did...

There was a stage when I was not sure whether the car would leave me standing in the pouring rain on a winter's night... nightmarish.

Is it running OK and reliably now for say a day or so? No strange indications anymore ?

Ray

Title: Re: Engine starts then dies
Post by Pjot on Mar 13^th, 2010, 6:34pm

I still have to wrap the wireloom, put on all the covers and clips before I`m totally finnish. As it is now I don`t dare take the car out on rainy days. I have heatshrink on every joint, but feel I need some extra protection. The engine starts first turn of the key, hot or cold. Idle just above 1000rpm when cold and just under 1000rpm when hot. Nice trottle responce and i barely feel any vibration when I put my hand on the engine. Running well and smooth.