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        General >> Problems >> No heat!
        
(Message started by: Tekno on May 1^st, 2009, 12:22pm)

Title: No heat!
Post by Tekno on May 1^st, 2009, 12:22pm

Problem is that I get no heat or only very rarely.

I checked error codes from A/C. It gave me 5 and 7.
Then I did "recalibration" and error codes disappeared. Strange?
And no heat again.

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Highlander on May 1^st, 2009, 1:52pm

blocked matrix or an airlock?

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Tekno on May 8^th, 2009, 12:21am

First, I drained coolant and changed thermostat & coolant temp sensor. Then I disconnected in/out hoses and put garden water hose to push water through matrix... I got only very small pour of water from outlet :o

so matrix seems to be blocked or is there something else which can do restriction to water flow ?

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Jonnycab on May 8^th, 2009, 1:18am

If the matrix needs alot of pressure to get any water to flow through then it does sound like the matrix is badly resricted/blocked. Don't forget the force from a garden hose is generally alot more than the force would normally be if flowing from the engine :)

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by wojtekor on May 8^th, 2009, 2:58am

On the polish forum, some people used some kind of rust dissolving liquid or the same thing that is used to clean electric kettles or even strong vinegar to flush the matrix.
They usually left it overnight filled with one of those substances then drain it, fill it up again and after a few hours used a garden hose or a pressure washer to flush it and let all the dirt/rusty bits come out...
I guess it's probably best to try 2 or all 3 substances advised, or even something extra you may come up with, as I have never tried it myself and so can't really tell which one will work 100% and I've heard that in different cases different things did the trick... Guess it all depends on how badly the matrix is blocked...

Anyway, hope it helps.

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Jonnycab on May 8^th, 2009, 4:08am

Woj, I think you're referring to limescale remover & limescale is generally what builds up in the matrix :)

Trouble is, limescale is an alkali & although adding scale remover/vinegar/acid/Coca-Cola (contains phosphoric acid) etc will dissolve limescale, it also usually causes the matrix to start leaking as well.

Reason being is that limescale, being an alkali, eats into aluminium. The matrix is made of aluminium & once limescale gets in, it starts building up & eating away at it. Eventually it will go right through, but it won't necessarily leak because the build up of limescale around the hole will stop it leaking.
So if you remove the limescale, then you'll open up the holes & the coolant will leak & you'll still have to replace the matrix ;)

d**ned if you do & d**ned if you don't ::)

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by wojtekor on May 8^th, 2009, 1:54pm

Quote:

Woj, I think you're referring to limescale remover & limescale is generally what builds up in the matrix Smiley

yup :) sorry, it was 3 o'clock in the morning :)

Never heard anyone reporting a leak after this procedure... but like I said, I've never tried it myself...

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Tekno on May 17^th, 2009, 2:38am

is there any substance which could be added in to the cooling fluid without draining it ???

How tough job is heater matrix changing?

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Jonnycab on May 17^th, 2009, 4:16am

No substance I know of :(....You could try unblocking it with scale remover etc & if it works then great. If it works but starts to leak then you could try a coolant stop leak ;)...If it doesn't work at all (most likely scenario) then the procedure for replacing the matrix is here.....http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/matrix.htm.

I replaced mine 3 years ago & it took me 2 days...then again, it was the first time I'd ever done it, so if I had to do it again, then maybe it won't take so long :)

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by tlundkvi on May 18^th, 2009, 9:05am

Probably I must confess to a sin, but after having a garage (also installed a block heater) flush the system with radiator cleaning "stuff" (put into the system and then car is run for 15 minutes or so etc.) I started to get small leaks, like 1 deciliter/week. Of course they were impossible to source. Then I just put in a small bottle of some radiator stop leak I bought from a local store, and the leak stopped :) But never thought cleaning can be a direct cause to leaks.

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by pete from Hull on May 18^th, 2009, 11:34am

Heater = Aluminium :D
Aluminium = Alkaline metal ::)

De-scaler, Vinigar, Cola etc = ACID :P

Acid neutralised by chemical reaction when contacted by Alkali during which alkali is eaten away. >:(

Result = LEAKS. :o

End of life of radiator matrix. :'(

Addition

Attempt to stop leaks with radweld etc.... Radweld repairs leaks by blocking up the waterways again.... Back to square one... :-[ :-X

Don't believe me? get a bit of descaler and a bit of aluminium and try for yourself.... ;)

Only answer

New one = :-* goodbye to Loads of money..... :(

Pete

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Tekno on Jun 2^nd, 2009, 5:51pm

Are you guys sure there aren't any vacuum and/or electrically controlled thingy to block and open water flow in heater matrix hose? In my old granada mk3 (fitted with A/C, there was.)

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Jonnycab on Jun 2^nd, 2009, 6:14pm

Quite certain :)

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Highlander on Jun 2^nd, 2009, 6:56pm

on 05/18/09 at 11:34:28, pete from Hull wrote:

Attempt to stop leaks with radweld etc.... Radweld repairs leaks by blocking up the waterways again.... Back to square one... :-[ :-XPete

I can vouch for that one :)

I used radweld in a Rover 827 once to stop a small rad leak, worked great but two days later it blocked the matrix!! :)

I later found in very small writing on the radweld label that it was not to be used in Rover 827's!! ;D

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Tekno on Jun 2^nd, 2009, 8:47pm

Okay, ill get new heater matrix... :-/

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by scorpio_man on Jun 2^nd, 2009, 10:07pm

on 06/02/09 at 20:47:11, Tekno wrote:

Okay, ill get new heater matrix... :-/

hi there

make sure you get the right one for a scorpio with climate control.
most times they try and give you one for a granada scorpio which is smaller.

hth

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Tekno on Jun 14^th, 2009, 2:31pm

That's amount of water flow which gets through:
http://ruohoranta.fi/galleries/sekalaiset/Scorpio-98/00031.mpg

a little slow, I guess.

Haven't got new heater matrix yet..

According to this, I should get same as Sierra/Granada: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/matrix.htm

Are you sure CC has bigger heater matrix?

Ford parts importer indeed lists Sierra and Scorpio heater matrixes as same. No options about a/c or year..

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by wojtekor on Jun 14^th, 2009, 3:11pm

ouch, Tekno if i were you I'd do a full chassis preservation... it looks like a nightmare... :o :o :o :o

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Tekno on Jun 14^th, 2009, 3:17pm

What? How so ???

Oilpipes just corroded ::)

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by scorpio_man on Jun 14^th, 2009, 3:29pm

hi there

there's not much wrong under you car bar those 2 pipes. ;)

anyway, see the ford data below...
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v521/scorpio_man/scorpio%20bits/matrix.jpg

hth

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Tompion on Jun 14^th, 2009, 3:39pm

on 06/14/09 at 14:31:02, Tekno wrote:

That's amount of water flow which gets through:
http://ruohoranta.fi/galleries/sekalaiset/Scorpio-98/00031.mpg

What are we looking at? If it’s connected to a hose pipe the water flow coming out of the matrix should look much the same as it does from the hose alone.
You’ll still get a good flow through the matrix even with several of the internal pipes blocked – but it won’t be any good as a heater.

I would imagine you should have the dearer matrix. Get a quote from https://www.fordpartsuk.com/partsrequest.htm giving your Vin no - the price will give an idea of which matrix it should be.

A couple of people have had the correct one supplied by these people:
http://www.search.kempstonradiators.com/eg7.php

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Tekno on Jun 14^th, 2009, 3:46pm

It was (inlet of heater matrix) connected to garden hose with 3 bar pressure...

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Tompion on Jun 14^th, 2009, 4:16pm

Pressure alone (without flow rate) doesn’t really mean much, but it doesn’t look good.

Time how long it takes to fill a bucket from the hose compared to via the matrix – there should be very little difference, if any.

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by tlundkvi on Jun 14^th, 2009, 5:22pm

Luckily my problems resolved pretty easily. No leaks and heat at will. Must admit I was a bit intimidated by this: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/matrix.htm

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Tekno on Jun 15^th, 2009, 4:04pm

I picked up CRC Radiator Cleaner from store. I'll test if it does anything ::)

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by NiceMan on Jun 15^th, 2009, 7:46pm

I can say at its not help... Just change it to new one!!! I try more stronger liqued clean and its help only .... 5% or similar... Them i buy newRadiator and them start coem warm inside.
Old time when go colder than -5 start inside car warm go down from +20 , when outs side is -20C inside car is only +5 ...
Bye new and change it... Its not so hard what its show... its easy.
You life in Finland? Looks that video in finnish webpage eli suomalainen sivu... Olen tuon kennon omaani vaihtanut.

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Tekno on Jun 15^th, 2009, 8:03pm

on 06/15/09 at 19:46:49, NiceMan wrote:

Ok. Mistä hankit ton kennon ? Muistatko hintaa? Ja onko sul ilman ilmastointia, manuaali-ilmastoinnilla, vai automaatti-ilmastointi (säädetään lämpötilalukemat ja se säätää ite)
Tarvikkeenahan (ainakaa motonet) kun ei ole tätä automaatti-ilmastoinnille sopivaa mallia. Eikä myöskään http://www.teroanttilaoy.fi joka myy orkkisosia :-/

Pardon! Sorry for strange language!

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by NiceMan on Jun 15^th, 2009, 8:09pm

I buy it from HessuMobili and and its cost about 70€, Price range that time is 56-80€. Same found in Sierra etc... I change that 2 year ago.
But you can ask from Tero Anttila Oy too... they sell orginal ford part.
My cosworth has Automatic A/C and this matrix is same than Sierra... Box read Sierra when i buy it ;--)
But possible english versio has some different than europa...
Pitää kunnioittaa että ollaan Englanninkielisellä forumilla.
Jos tarvitset apua niin priva toimii tai niceman(a)riceracing.net
Hankalin omassani oli ottaa ne 2 ruuvia tulipellistä kun ton 6 koneen ja tulipellin välissä ei ollut juurikaan tilaa.
Kojetaulun purkaa helposti ja kohtuu nopeasti, päsivässä tuon tekee helposti.

You call to TeroAnttilaOy or only look webpage? Webpage is poor and ugly... email and call works to them.

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by wojtekor on Jun 15^th, 2009, 8:09pm

??? ??? ??? ???

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by NiceMan on Jun 15^th, 2009, 8:11pm

Oh sorry... looks at we both living in Finland so use little finnish but most i write English becasue we are in UK forum =)

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by wojtekor on Jun 15^th, 2009, 8:13pm

it's not really nice is it... don't get me wrong but you can use finnish on ICQ or something to deal with your matters, but here we use english... how would you feel if i started using russian or polish?
especially as this is a technical forum and there's no way anybody can help if they can't understand you...

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Tekno on Jun 15^th, 2009, 8:15pm

Now I'm very confused ;D
Scorpio_man says automatic air conditioning needs different (bigger) matrix.
Microcat software just shows different Finis code for it.
NiceMan says that Sierra/Granada matrix fits fine, at least to his Scorpio with automatic air conditioning.

Who should I believe

??? ???

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by wojtekor on Jun 15^th, 2009, 8:19pm

it may fit... sounds plausible... the best way to solve this would be to get exact dimensions of both... + obviously a pic to compare them.

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by NiceMan on Jun 15^th, 2009, 8:27pm

I remember at new is 4-5mm shorter than old one... so fill that space =) This only memory because its 2 year when i change it.
But call to hessumobile and ask... i rememeber at take pack where reading Sierra/Granada... Like brake disk read Mondeo/Granada btu no Scorpio ;D

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by NiceMan on Jun 15^th, 2009, 8:28pm

on 06/15/09 at 20:13:56, wojtekor wrote:

We can use Chinece too =) its ok to me too =)
Sorry,we keep only english hire.

And before you write i say Sorry already...

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by Jonnycab on Jun 16^th, 2009, 4:00pm

English is the main lingo here, but Rubbish is quite popular as well ;D

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by NiceMan on Jun 16^th, 2009, 4:29pm

;D Tekno: you get any price to new matrix ?

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by tlundkvi on Jun 16^th, 2009, 6:44pm

on 06/15/09 at 20:03:01, Tekno wrote:

Hey guys, check this out on ebay: 180331360339

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by NiceMan on Jun 16^th, 2009, 7:00pm

Not real bad price!!!! Maybe i need buy one to meself becasue "old" one is 2 year old ;-)
I have PayPal too ...

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by tlundkvi on Jun 16^th, 2009, 7:08pm

on 06/16/09 at 19:00:26, NiceMan wrote:

Not real bad price!!!! Maybe i need buy one to meself becasue "old" one is 2 year old ;-)
I have PayPal too ...

Remember to buy it from the UK auction (he has different in French), will be quite a deal I would say. Can't either imagine shipping from Poland to UK would be cheaper than to Finland. This is the same but £1 cheaper. 170301939248

Oh a note on Paypal: *always* use paypal when possible on ebay, as all transactions are insured.

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by NiceMan on Jun 16^th, 2009, 7:17pm

I think at sent from Poland is not problem... i sen stuff to myself from china etc ;-)

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by tlundkvi on Jun 16^th, 2009, 7:31pm

on 06/16/09 at 19:17:01, NiceMan wrote:

I think at sent from Poland is not problem... i sen stuff to myself from china etc ;-)

Yes. The whole western economy is based on producing stuff for pennies in China and selling it dearly over here. The Finnish spare parts dealers do the same. Only high shipping costs for individual items save them (sometimes).

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by NiceMan on Jun 16^th, 2009, 7:34pm

And they put Finnish price to them too... expensive...

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by tlundkvi on Jun 17^th, 2009, 6:57am

on 06/16/09 at 19:34:50, NiceMan wrote:

And they put Finnish price to them too... expensive...

It depends, the usual is you will get the part a lot cheaper from UK or Germany, but then when the £25-40 shipping is added on top of eg. 10 kg brake discs, it breaks even with the foreign sellers. In the late 80's people were intimidated by that a broken cat would make the owner consider writing off (= breaking etc.) the car. Now Finns believe 300-400 euros for a cat is cheap, whilst you get one from the UK for 100-120 euros for a car as odd as a Cosworth Scorpio. NiceMan, you know what I mean :)

But labour is still quite reasonable in Finland, 50-70 euros at a workshop. In Munich 90 was considered cheap and 120 was a standard main dealer rate.

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by NiceMan on Jun 17^th, 2009, 7:22am

Yes i know =) Dont worry, its not first time when i buy outside Finland =) Cat, Hifi, Water Pump... =)

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by emcscott on Jun 24^th, 2009, 5:28pm

Please ! tlundkvi - can you tell us what you did to get heat out of your system ?? I'd reall y like to get mine working better before another winter ! Thanks.

Title: Re: No heat!
Post by tlundkvi on Jun 24^th, 2009, 6:02pm

on 06/24/09 at 17:28:07, emcscott wrote:

Please ! tlundkvi - can you tell us what you did to get heat out of your system ?? I'd reall y like to get mine working better before another winter ! Thanks.

Mine was switching from hot to cold in turns. I had a relatively serious shortage of coolant in my system causing engine self protection to cut water flow to the matrix. I had the yellow stuff in there so embarrassignly it went unnoticed. Topping up with water was a temp fix, but I decided to have it drained and flushed (also installed a block heater so I did it at a garage). With new fluid it was easier to monitor the microscopic leak, so I took my chances, although discouraged, to put in some "stop leak" stuff which removed the leak.

Symptoms to look out for:
- low coolant level due to a leak
- temp going slightly over the mid point at the same time heating stops

If water level is lower than the reservoir, add nothing but water unless you are 150% certain you know what is in there.

So I got away with that. Working great since (3 months or so).

But if this does not apply to your case, water flow through matrix is bad, a matrix job may be the only solution, as agent based flushers destroy heater matrices.