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        General >> Problems >> water loss????????????
        
(Message started by: lleewar on Aug 20^th, 2009, 2:04pm)

Title: water loss????????????
Post by lleewar on Aug 20^th, 2009, 2:04pm

Another problem with my d**n 1995 2.0 16v scorpio!!!!!I am regularly topping up the coolant level with about a litre of water every three or so days but there is no evidence of loss anywhere. The heater matrix has been discounted as the wells are dry and no curry smell. The filler bottle did have a leak but thats been sealed. I have noticed the filler bottle seems a little swollen and after a long drive the top hose does seem quite firm with the lower one a little bit more flexible with the radiator evenly hot. Where the hell is the water going, I am at a total loss. Is it going where it should not??? I am at the mercy of the forum. Help please

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Simmo on Aug 20^th, 2009, 2:22pm

Is it an auto and if so have you checked the level in the box. IIRC the oil cooler can leak and thus allow water to get in the transmission fluid. ???

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Robzere31 on Aug 20^th, 2009, 2:24pm

What's the oil like?
If theres a a yellowish mayo type gunk in there then I'd say that's where it's going.

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Highlander on Aug 20^th, 2009, 3:08pm

coming out the overflow pipe?

dodgy valve in the cap?

put the pipe into a little plastic bottle while you drive around and see if theres any water in there.

Failing that, looking suspiciously like a head gasket :-/

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Snoopy on Aug 20^th, 2009, 3:15pm

I have to agree []with the last comment.... :( :'(

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by lleewar on Aug 20^th, 2009, 3:54pm

Hi, it is an auto. The oil is fine and not mayoed, changed recently. Transmission oil looks to have a raised level; how do I know if there is water in there? It did flow(I'm guessing) from the overflow pipe recently as there was a main stream of water on that side of the car starting from behind the wheel and not further forward of the car. Will put bottle on overflow pipe to see if there is any loss. Dodgy valve in the cap??? I have noticed the top rubber/seal has gone.

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Tekno on Aug 20^th, 2009, 4:16pm

notice that transmission fluid shrinks when it gets hot. so if you check fluid level under 65c, stick shows there is too much, but its false.

I don't think water can get to transmission fluid because it has own cooler and pipes etc

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by scorpio_man on Aug 20^th, 2009, 4:30pm

on 08/20/09 at 16:16:15, Tekno wrote:

I don't think water can get to transmission fluid because it has own cooler and pipes etc

hi there

it can.
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/leaks.htm

hth

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Jonnycab on Aug 20^th, 2009, 4:56pm

Sticking thermostat causing water to come out the overflow ?....How is the temp guage behaving ? :)

Also, on both the matrix in & outlet pipes there are plastic joins (they're not complete pipes). These joins have been known to start leaking after a few years because they go brittle, split & eventually just break apart :)

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Highlander on Aug 20^th, 2009, 6:46pm

on 08/20/09 at 15:54:51, lleewar wrote:

I have noticed the top rubber/seal has gone.

there shouldnt be any pressure in the system then??

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by lleewar on Aug 20^th, 2009, 11:11pm

Hi, Did check the thermostat a couple of months ago with the heat test and it worked well but that was then and this is now. Thing is the temperature gauge sits in the middle of the dial all day long.. Did a 150 mile run on the motorway today with the overflow pipe in a small bottle and it's still empty!!!

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Jonnycab on Aug 21^st, 2009, 12:58am

If the temp gauge is staying nicely in the middle then you can discount a dodgy t-stat & probably the head gasket. It sounds as though it's down to a leak in the system somewhere.

It's definately worth checking those matrix pipe joins, as they can be a cause, although not immediately evident. Look for any white residue (evapourated coolant) around the joins & anywhere else around the system, especially the water pump :)

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by lleewar on Aug 21^st, 2009, 8:06am

Will check the matrix pipes but as highlander mentions, I have pressure in the system. Also, after leaving the car overnight with the overflow pipe in a bottle, it has shed about a teaspoon of water. Could we possibly be talking about an intermittent air lock here somewhere?? with the water being lost through the overflow pipe while no-one notices or even a sludged rad. I did clean it out when I replaced the coolant and noticed, as another forum member did, that after a run the water in the header tank was brown again!! The top hose does go rather firm and the header tank very hot.

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Snoopy on Aug 21^st, 2009, 1:35pm

on 08/20/09 at 16:16:15, Tekno wrote:

You have it wrong way around.. ATF Increases in Volume when its HOT and Shrinks when its cold.
Water can enter the ATF system through the radiator cooler in the system. If the pressure is great then that scenario is even greater.

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by lleewar on Aug 24^th, 2009, 4:02pm

Checked matrix pipes and they are OK as I think we all expected. Still losing water and it's not going into a bottle via the overflow pipe. Looks like( unless there is another suggestion or it just magically disappears )it could be the oil cooler.

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by lleewar on Aug 24^th, 2009, 10:41pm

Is the oil cooler the only explanation??? And does any one know the best AND CHEAPEST place to get one. Money is extremely tight at the moment with no job.

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Stixy on Aug 24^th, 2009, 10:54pm

That amount of water Sounds like headgasket to me they dont allways turn the oil to sludge when they go

The auto oil cooler failing is very unlikely if it had failed your coolant would be oily sludgy as the ATF in the cooler runs at a higher presure than the coolant so it would be loosing ATF not coolant

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by gozz on Aug 24^th, 2009, 10:59pm

llewar.
The cooler that would be causing water to enter the transmission is in the radiator and is part thereof.If water is going into your ATF the level would rise appreciably,the oil would be discoloured and the box would soon fail.
If none of these conditions is evident,the water may be going via the exhaust because of a failing head gasket or a crack in the head.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by gozz on Aug 24^th, 2009, 11:07pm

Stixy.
I reckon you've got that backwards,the oil pumped through the coolers is an open ended return,and runs creating very little pressure,in fact the coolers would not stand high pressure because they are too frail.The cooling system as you know is constantly under a controlled pressure so that the boiling point is raised.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Highlander on Aug 24^th, 2009, 11:23pm

yep, very little pressure in the ATF system

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by lleewar on Aug 24^th, 2009, 11:49pm

I have noticed that when I start the car, it sounds like a diesel for about five seconds. Has this anything to do with it??? Gozz, It's an auto: it has a seperate cooler.

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by lleewar on Aug 24^th, 2009, 11:52pm

I think the atf level is rising. Its above the maximum level.

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Highlander on Aug 24^th, 2009, 11:56pm

on 08/24/09 at 23:49:02, lleewar wrote:

I have noticed that when I start the car, it sounds like a diesel for about five seconds. Has this anything to do with it??? Gozz, It's an auto: it has a seperate cooler.

It does but the autobox cooler pipes also run through the main coolant radiator, you may have an internal leak between the coolant and ATF systems

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by lleewar on Aug 25^th, 2009, 9:59am

so it's the oil cooler gone???

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by lleewar on Aug 25^th, 2009, 10:01am

or the rad????

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by martin_rowe on Aug 25^th, 2009, 10:38am

'sounds like a diesel for 5 secs', better check spark plugs, if you find rust on electrodes its pro h/gasket or cracked head. g/box oil cooler will let coolant into g/box & oil into coolant, they flow both ways (from experiance), get 'block test' done on cooling system, or check for prescence of hydrocarbons in coolant when hot.

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by lleewar on Aug 25^th, 2009, 10:55am

Car starts first time and without hesitation, but will check plugs. Thought the noise was something to do with the exhaust !!!!

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Jonnycab on Aug 25^th, 2009, 11:19am

"Sounds like diesel for 5 seconds"......Could be worn timing chain tensioner & not related to water loss :)

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Highlander on Aug 25^th, 2009, 1:13pm

on 08/25/09 at 09:59:57, lleewar wrote:

so it's the oil cooler gone???

I'd say if that is the problem then its the internals of the coolant radiator that have corrosion/damage but you'd need to find out for sure.

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by gozz on Aug 25^th, 2009, 9:07pm

llewar.
As Martin says,look for signs of water in the combustion chambers,the presence of that when starting from cold raises the compression ratio briefly and the resultant hydraulic pressure could cause a knock.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Jonnycab on Aug 26^th, 2009, 12:29am

Just a thought :).......you originally said you had a leak in the expansion tank but it was sealed. How was it sealed ?

Splits in the expansion tank are quite a common problem.......I'm on my third tank, & I've never been able to sucessfully reseal a tank yet.

Is there any water or white trails running from underneath the expansion tank towards the screen washer tank ?

Sorry if I'm going over old ground :)

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by lleewar on Aug 26^th, 2009, 8:34am

Hi Jonny, Old ground is good!!!!! I used an araldite type sealant bought at my local motor factors..Now for the embarassing bit. Firstly, I am going to keep all the replies to my problem for future use and diagnosis. Secondly, my water loss is from the header tank which leaked in such a way it could not be seen. It had developed a new split underneath and with a gravel path the water could not be noticed. At least my fears of something worse have been dispelled but as you all know, it will not be the end of the ongoing problems these great cars get..Many thanks for all the replies I received. I am learning more about the car every time I come onto the forum.

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by gozz on Aug 26^th, 2009, 8:40am

Dohhhh ::)

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by lleewar on Aug 26^th, 2009, 9:50am

Need a new header tank if there is one out there!!

Title: Re: water loss????????????
Post by Jonnycab on Aug 26^th, 2009, 10:46am

Another satisfied customer ;D

Hopefully you can get a good nights sleep now, knowing that the Scorp will live to see a few more problems ;)