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        General >> Problems >> 24v Ultima won't start from key
        
(Message started by: einherjar on Aug 23rd, 2009, 8:32pm)
Title: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by einherjar on Aug 23rd, 2009, 8:32pm
Greetings from Belarus, guys! Sorry for my Engrish  :)
Sense of problem:
Scorp not even move few months and we've got a heavily rains in this summer, so water rush from battery side (yep, no battery cover :( ) to front passenger side. Facing under glove box little bit stagnated and it was good puddle on rubber rug.
After that engine not starting from the key, I just hear relay click. Two relays clicking: in fusebox near battery and in central tunnel, under handbrake leveler. But when ignition on and I connect "+" from the battery with "-" on starter - engine easily starting up!
Leave my Scorp at electrician - he don't find anything  :(
Any ideas, guys?
By the way, all rest electric working fine. Maybe it's not because of flooding, maybe it just coincidence  ???
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by wojtekor on Aug 23rd, 2009, 11:53pm
fuseboxes need rebuilding
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by Geoff_W on Aug 24th, 2009, 12:26am
Not had the water leakage problems that you have. If you start to get other electrical problems you will almost certainly need to rebuild the fuseboxes.

However if they are now dried out and functioning, why not get a starter button fitted and wired in to the circuit so that you can continue to start it. Matches an intermittent starting problem that I have been experiencing on my 2.9. Now no longer a problem.

There are a number of people on ebay selling engine start buttons.

Good luck
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by einherjar on Aug 24th, 2009, 8:43am

on 08/24/09 at 00:26:42, Geoff_W wrote:
Not had the water leakage problems that you have. If you start to get other electrical problems you will almost certainly need to rebuild the fuseboxes.

However if they are now dried out and functioning, why not get a starter button fitted and wired in to the circuit so that you can continue to start it. Matches an intermittent starting problem that I have been experiencing on my 2.9. Now no longer a problem.

There are a number of people on ebay selling engine start buttons.

Good luck


Thanks for advice but it's not so good for me to bring changes in original construction.  :-/ And did rebuilding of fusebox helps if all other electric functioning as well? Maybe problem in alarm module, that placed under glove box? But alarm working fine  :-/ How can I diagnose real cause?
By the way, I read this http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/fusebox2.htm a few times but still don't get what sense in this operation? Just drying and cleaning? But if already more than a month has gone after my water flooding is that still can help?
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by Geoff_W on Aug 24th, 2009, 9:46am
Problem is that water in the box causes corrosion of coatings on metals (green crystals amongst others)and results in poor conductivity, some things stop working.

One of the things about a rebuild is a chance to clean up connections and that may get you back to normal working. You say in your post that starting is the only problem and that you seem to have bypassed the problem.

Will an electrical specialist be able to fix this? Maybe, but sometimes only by major replacement of wiring and components. Do they know if they have fixed it for good. Usually they will not guarentee. In my case I had work done that resolved several issues to do with unexpected electrical activity, like lights staying on. Occasional starting problems that included clicking relays and apparent flat batteries which when left would start the car continued for a while but are no longer a problem, because in every case when this happens I have an auxiliary switch that puts a direct feed to the starter and the car starts straight away.

I suspect that the problem may be linked to the immobiliser circuit or the ignition switch.

Sorry if this does not seem helpful in your situation.
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by einherjar on Aug 24th, 2009, 11:30am

on 08/24/09 at 09:46:08, Geoff_W wrote:
Problem is that water in the box causes corrosion of coatings on metals (green crystals amongst others)and results in poor conductivity, some things stop working.

One of the things about a rebuild is a chance to clean up connections and that may get you back to normal working. You say in your post that starting is the only problem and that you seem to have bypassed the problem.

Will an electrical specialist be able to fix this? Maybe, but sometimes only by major replacement of wiring and components. Do they know if they have fixed it for good. Usually they will not guarentee. In my case I had work done that resolved several issues to do with unexpected electrical activity, like lights staying on. Occasional starting problems that included clicking relays and apparent flat batteries which when left would start the car continued for a while but are no longer a problem, because in every case when this happens I have an auxiliary switch that puts a direct feed to the starter and the car starts straight away.

I suspect that the problem may be linked to the immobiliser circuit or the ignition switch.

Sorry if this does not seem helpful in your situation.

Any relays or fuses in battery side fusebox responsible for starting?
Dunno about immobilizer, cause if ignition circuit locked by immobilizer there is no chance to start the engine - fuel pump and spark usually blocked. But maybe on Scorps different system.   :-/
Ignition switch? Did you mean problem may be in the ignition lock?
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by Geoff_W on Aug 24th, 2009, 12:50pm
In the case of my car it looks like the ignition switch is possibly not giving a good contact in position 3, insufficient current to trigger the starter relay, but the auxiliary switch takes care of that when that is a problem.

I realise that your situation could be different.

A flooded fusebox is likely to give you starting problems amongst other things, you say the auto-electrician found no fault, but you can start the car with the ignition switched on only by using a direct connection from the battery to the starter, that really does sound like a worn ignition switch could be a possibility and the fuseboxes just add to the problem.

Geoff
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by einherjar on Aug 24th, 2009, 3:56pm

on 08/24/09 at 12:50:48, Geoff_W wrote:
In the case of my car it looks like the ignition switch is possibly not giving a good contact in position 3, insufficient current to trigger the starter relay, but the auxiliary switch takes care of that when that is a problem.

I realise that your situation could be different.

A flooded fusebox is likely to give you starting problems amongst other things, you say the auto-electrician found no fault, but you can start the car with the ignition switched on only by using a direct connection from the battery to the starter, that really does sound like a worn ignition switch could be a possibility and the fuseboxes just add to the problem.

Geoff

Thanks, Geoff, I think check the ignition lock easier than just conjecture about cause of problem. But when I tried to pull off ignition lock - can't find any fastens of it ??? But I saw 5 color wires (red, green, yellow, brown and black) on back side of ignition lock. Maybe I just need to connect some wires, but which? Don't have any manual :(
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by Geoff_W on Aug 24th, 2009, 5:23pm
There used to be a link to the wiring diagrams hosted on a site in Russia, however the link is now dead. Hopefully there will be somebody along who will be able to give you an idea of which wire is which.
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by einherjar on Aug 24th, 2009, 5:35pm

on 08/24/09 at 17:23:17, Geoff_W wrote:
There used to be a link to the wiring diagrams hosted on a site in Russia, however the link is now dead. Hopefully there will be somebody along who will be able to give you an idea of which wire is which.

 http://www.ford-scorpio.ru/electro/engcntrl29.zip that?
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by Simmo on Aug 24th, 2009, 6:18pm
Snoopy has put the wiring diagrams Here (http://cid-eb36f845ea9b8fb6.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/WIRING%20DIAGRAMS). :)
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by Tompion on Aug 24th, 2009, 10:54pm
I know it’s not the battery side fuse box, but you could try swapping relay R11  (start inhibitor) in the central fusebox for one of the others with the same part no.
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by einherjar on Aug 25th, 2009, 8:56am

on 08/24/09 at 22:54:21, Tompion wrote:
I know it’s not the battery side fuse box, but you could try swapping relay R11  (start inhibitor) in the central fusebox for one of the others with the same part no.


Not helped  :( Also I noticed that clicking of relay when I try to start goes from battery side, not from main fusebox.
OK, what about starter button? How much Amps it should maintain and through what hole I can put wires in the interior?
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by Geoff_W on Aug 25th, 2009, 1:39pm
If you opt for one of the kits of ebay you will get a wiring diagram with it. Does your Ultima have a headlamp height adjustment knob, next to the Headlamp switch? If not you will find a nice blank space there.

Have a look at this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=120454384121&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT

Geoff
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by Tompion on Aug 25th, 2009, 2:14pm

on 08/25/09 at 08:56:20, einherjar wrote:
Not helped  :( Also I noticed that clicking of relay when I try to start goes from battery side, not from main fusebox.
OK, what about starter button? How much Amps it should maintain and through what hole I can put wires in the interior?


The clicking you hear is probably the fuel pump relay.

Have you tried starting in neutral as well as park?
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by Tompion on Aug 25th, 2009, 2:19pm
The clicking may be the relay/s dropping out due to low battery voltage, have you checked/charged the battery?
Title: Re: 24v Ultima won't start from key
Post by einherjar on Aug 25th, 2009, 10:10pm
Thanks for your advices, guys! Today I finally find good auto-electrician, he unblocked immobilizer circuit and find out that my "autobox positioner" or something like that working not so well, so car can start only on N gear. Also, he said that he can fix it, but it will work not so long and best way will be replacement of this little module. Don't have spare $100, so I think it will be wait  ::)


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