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        General >> Problems >> non starting 
        
(Message started by: nighthawk on Nov 6^th, 2009, 4:32pm)

Title: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 6^th, 2009, 4:32pm

hi all i have a N reg scorp 2.0 ulitma . Was working fine then it rained and now it wont start. Followed some of the posts about water probs with pats . But if i take the ccm out the light stay the same (the red one on the top of the dash)and it makes no diff . So can i just change the ccm or is there more to it (reprogramming keys ect..)

Title: Re: non starting
Post by gozz on Nov 6^th, 2009, 4:40pm

The CCM is not connected to the PATS as far as I am aware,the engine will run whether or not the CCM is in situ.The PATS is operated via the chip in the key,not by locking the doors.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 6^th, 2009, 4:45pm

where abouts is the pats then as i thought it was all one thing as i think its the pats that is not working correct as have power down to the fuel pump for about a sec then no power down to it have checked the fuses and the relays and all ok . But the car wont start

Title: Re: non starting
Post by tootman318 on Nov 6^th, 2009, 8:50pm

on my cossie pats module behind glovebox. when you turn ignition on, pump only powers up for a couple of seconds. it only runs all the time when cranking starter and when engine running hth Darren

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 6^th, 2009, 9:17pm

thanks tootman it is the cossie lump in the scorp thats where i took the ccm unit from behind the glovebox can some one show me a pic of a pats unit as i think we are talking about the same unit

Title: Re: non starting
Post by gozz on Nov 6^th, 2009, 10:49pm

nighthawk.
Cars with EEC IV PCMs all had a seperate PATS unit which is not easily accessible and is mounted to the right of and lower down than the CCM and PCM.I am given to understand that cars,and certainly later cars with EEC V as yours has,have the PATS system IN the PCM.There is a possibility that if you have water ingress it may have entered the PCM which is underneath the CCM,and is usually rivetted into a cage,these rivets must be drilled out to remove the PCM.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 6^th, 2009, 11:09pm

can the pcm be dried out with a hair drier if not corroded or can it be changed with out too much trouble thanks for your help gozz

Title: Re: non starting
Post by gozz on Nov 6^th, 2009, 11:17pm

If indeed you find water inside when you remove covers,not to say that you will, I would think there is a sporting chance of drying it with a haidryer.It only has one multiplug held by a 10mm bolt and is simple to swap once you have drilled out the rivets.You may be able to borrow one from someone on here to try.
Just noticed you say yours is a 2lt,then it's a Cossie ! or have you put a Cossie PCM into a 2lt,if so there may well be differences ?
GOZZ

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 6^th, 2009, 11:31pm

when i look at the top of the engine it says cosworth on it . on the log book it says 1998cc scorpio ultima 16v auto if that helps you . if its not raining here tomorrow will have a go at drilling the pcm out thanks again

Title: Re: non starting
Post by tonyboy on Nov 6^th, 2009, 11:39pm

Which engine have you got..... http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/technical.htm

Title: Re: non starting
Post by gozz on Nov 6^th, 2009, 11:41pm

Has the engine got a black plastic cover over a pair of big aluminium intake manifolds shaped to fit over them,and does it bear inscriptions 24v and Cosworth,if so that's what it is.You would appear to have a mystery bitsa,and I think you should consult the HIGHLANDER oracle for further info.Send him a PM with your vehicle details and ask him if he could spare the time to advise you further.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 6^th, 2009, 11:43pm

will look in the morn and will post up then but thanks for your help

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 7^th, 2009, 9:52am

the sun is out lovely have had a look at the engine and it is a 2.0 litre DOHC 16V . Will give it awhile as still abit early to be out there drilling as most people round here like a lay in at the weekend lol

Title: Re: non starting
Post by gozz on Nov 7^th, 2009, 11:07am

Mystery solved ;)
GOZZ.

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 7^th, 2009, 11:11am

have got the eec-v unit out and gave it a blast with the hair drier . Now the silly question are all eec-v units the same or do i have to match this number up 95gb-12a650-gd
just incase that it dont work

Title: Re: non starting
Post by gozz on Nov 7^th, 2009, 3:24pm

I looked at a Cossie unit,it is one digit different from yours,95GB 12A 650 HD.
12v units are very different,starting 90GB,an older system!
GOZZ.

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 7^th, 2009, 5:14pm

letting the units prop dry out before i put them back on in the morn lets hope the car starts

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 8^th, 2009, 1:21pm

nope thats it still no better turning over but not starting looks like im going to have to get some one in to have a look more money any ideas about some one i live in dagenham essex

Title: Re: non starting
Post by Highlander on Nov 8^th, 2009, 1:42pm

on 11/06/09 at 23:31:30, nighthawk wrote:

Just had a read over this post, you seem unsure which engine is actually in it, one post you say it says Cosworth on the engine cover then you say its a 2 litre??

Can you post a picture??

I'm just thinking there may be an outside chance you have a YABB Cosworth engine out of a Sierra/Escort which someone may have fitted previously??

What are the actual symptoms then?
what does the PATS light do?

If it were a PATS problem the engine wouldnt turn over.

Are you getting a spark and fuel??

Fuel cut off switch in the boot and a dud battery would be my first guesses

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 8^th, 2009, 2:07pm

its a dohc 12v 2.0 litre going by the owners hand book pics but it has powered by cosworth writen on the top . The fuel cut off in the boot is ok and the bat is charging ok on me bat charger and it starts me camper van ok and turns the scorpio over fast. The pats light comes on when you put the ignition on for about a sec then goes off and does nothing more . The fuel pump comes on for about three sec then goes off when it is on you get 12 volts down to it then nothing . The blead value by the injectors when pressed fuel comes out so would say fuel is getting down but how much not sure . When you turn the engine over it goes to fire up but thats it but carrys on turning over hope this helps you

I have two black keys with red bits and the red key no of them make any diff to it

Have emailed pics to you highlander as could get them posted up on here

Title: Re: non starting
Post by Highlander on Nov 8^th, 2009, 3:01pm

Someones been modifying the engine cover ;)

Its a 2 litre not the 24v Cosworth

http://i33.tinypic.com/2a5cb9j.jpg

So it does cough a bit trying to start but doesnt fire up?
Have you checked for a spark?
possibly coil packs/wiring?

Definitely not PATS as the engine wouldnt crank and the light would flash

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 8^th, 2009, 3:22pm

no have just done what i have posted up will have a look tomorrow with the spark plugs as starting to get dark will post up how i get on as long as its not raining as working outside on it.

yes thats it cough and no start

Title: Re: non starting
Post by Highlander on Nov 8^th, 2009, 3:25pm

Dark?? where are you? China? ;D

might be easier checking it in the dark too

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 8^th, 2009, 3:26pm

no lol its come over cloudy essex
true will give it a go

Title: Re: non starting
Post by Highlander on Nov 8^th, 2009, 3:30pm

I would take the top engine cover off and turn it over in the dark first just to see if there is anything unusual sparking.

Then you can remove the coil packs/plugs and check them but it would be unusual although not impossible if both coil packs were shot..
you can get a 16v running with some throttle on only one cylinder ;)

p.s. Dont rule out the battery, it can turn the engine over fast and not fire it up if its on the way out or not the correct capacity.. its a Scorpio phenomenon ;D

What rating is your battery and can you get it checked?

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 8^th, 2009, 3:54pm

right took number one plug out and had a nice spark off it . But did notice that the plug was bone dry and sooty. So put the plug back in and turned the engine over for awhile then took it out to see if it was damp and it wasnt and it didnt smell of petrol . So its looking like it could be a fuel prob

the bat is a 12v 70ah

Title: Re: non starting
Post by Highlander on Nov 8^th, 2009, 3:59pm

Is there petrol in it?? ;)

It DOES happen, I've done it myself!! ;D

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 8^th, 2009, 4:00pm

yes there is petrol in it i thought that so put ten pounds worth in it just incase and the gauge in the car reads a 1/4 of a tank in it

Title: Re: non starting
Post by Highlander on Nov 8^th, 2009, 4:07pm

ok, and you said you've checked the relays and fuses?

F16 and F17 in main fuse box

F31, F34, F37 and F42 in auxiliary fuse box

Relay R17 and R19 in Auxiliary fuse box

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/fuseboxes.htm

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 8^th, 2009, 4:23pm

all the fues are ok and will get two relays tomorrow just incase the aa man did look at this but not sure if he look at both the relays and i dont know how to check relays

Title: Re: non starting
Post by Highlander on Nov 8^th, 2009, 4:28pm

You said in a previous post the fuses and relays were checked and ok??

So you have had the AA look at it too?

Did they not give any indication as to what the problem may be?

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 8^th, 2009, 4:32pm

he had no idea other than take it to a dealer

he checked the green one and said there was 12volts to the fuel pump for about two seconds then nothing and he wasnt sure if that was right . He said the green relay was ok but dont rem him checking the brown one

Title: Re: non starting
Post by Highlander on Nov 8^th, 2009, 5:11pm

can you check the voltage to the injectors while turning the ignition on and off?

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 8^th, 2009, 5:39pm

i have a volt meter will check in morning if i can rem how to use the thing as been along time lol. Will post the results

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 19^th, 2009, 4:31pm

ok been along time since me last post . The car still dont start so no change there . Have now found out the some thing is switching the fuel pump off . Have dropped the fuel tank and took it out . Took the fuel pump out of the tank run 12v supply from another car battery and the fuel pump runs for as long as the battery is on .Put the pump back on the car and it runs for a sec then turns of . Have been told to run another wire down to the pump so it has another power supply to when you turn the key and this will solve me problem but is this ok to do as it sounds a bit cow boy ish . Does any one have the wiring diagrams for this car or where i can down load it from thanks

Title: Re: non starting
Post by tootman318 on Nov 19^th, 2009, 5:49pm

pump only runs for a second or two when you turn ign on. it only runs all the time when cranking engine and when engine running. hth darren

Title: Re: non starting
Post by Highlander on Nov 19^th, 2009, 7:34pm

Yep thats what it should do, builds up the pressure then cuts off if the engine doesnt start.

Another wire wont help.

Did you check the injectors?

I'm sure the AA man would have checked the fuel cut out switch in the boot?

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 19^th, 2009, 10:05pm

even when i turn the engine over it doesnt work no will check the injectors in the morn. the cut in the boot seems to be working ok when it trips the red light on top of the dash stays on . When you push the cut out button in the red light goes out so would say its working ok

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 20^th, 2009, 6:41pm

its looking like its the wiring loom on the engine the one that does the injectors and other bits as had a look in the top of the injectors and some one has messed about with the wiring joining in new wires . So will be looking at getting new loom spoke to some bloke that just does scorpios and he said its a common fault with them they get brittle and brake down and it cuts out the fuel to stop a fire .

Title: Re: non starting
Post by nighthawk on Nov 20^th, 2009, 8:48pm

Are the wiring loom for the 2.0L 16V the same as the 2.3L 16V as some one on ebay says it is but a bloke that repairs scorpios says hes not sure but thinks its not