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        General >> Problems >> Engine won't start after battery recharge
        
(Message started by: sapte on Jan 10^th, 2010, 10:56pm)

Title: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by sapte on Jan 10^th, 2010, 10:56pm

Hello guys,

I have the following problem with a 1998 2.3 automatic petrol scorpio:

The car hasn't been started for about a month and a half and two days ago I gave it a try, but the battery was dead, totally dead. So I've decided to jump start it but it just made a machine gun sound and did not start. After a while the machine gun sound stopped and now it just did nothing, no sounds nothing when I turned the key in. So I've recharged the battery. Now I have lights in the dashboard headlights work, everything electric works but when I turn the key to start it just does nothing, absolutely nothing, not even dimming the lights in the dashboard. But I've noticed that the lights in the windows switches go off when I try to start it.

Is there something I'm missing, do I need to reset anything?

I must also mention that the car ran perfectly before I stopped driving it. So the last time I stopped the engine everything was perfect.

I would appreciate any advice ...

Thank you in advance.

Alex

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by big_timer on Jan 10^th, 2010, 11:07pm

maybe the starter motor had seized or maybe even froze and you giving it a wind up has pulled the internals of the motor to bits.the machine gun sound definetly sounds like a seized starter

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by sapte on Jan 10^th, 2010, 11:09pm

That happened before recharging, when I jump started it ... I've been checking the fault finder page and noticed that some relays could be also the problem, like R11 and R21 ...

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by sapte on Jan 11^th, 2010, 12:14am

Checked the relay's, they work perfectly... I'm really wondering if the starter could have failed just like that. It worked perfectly before the battery ran out ...

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Snoopy on Jan 11^th, 2010, 8:25am

The machine gun sound does sound like the solenoid TRYING very hard to engage which it has to do before the starter actually engages... worth giving the starter a check . Could well be that the starter has jammed. If its an auto then you need to get the starter off to free it off.

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by sapte on Jan 11^th, 2010, 11:39am

hey, thank you very much guys. could you please also tell me where the starter is located?

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Simmo on Jan 11^th, 2010, 12:32pm

Have a look at This page (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/starterman.htm) which should help. ;)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by sapte on Jan 11^th, 2010, 12:33pm

I looked at that page, but really doesn't help me much, I can't distinguish any other parts in that drawing that could help me find the location of the starter motor

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Simmo on Jan 11^th, 2010, 12:46pm

IIRC it sits under the oil filter on my 2.0ltr. Essentially it is fixed in a hole in the bell housing so that the gear on the starter engages with the toothed ring on the flywheel inside the housing. ;)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Jan 11^th, 2010, 1:44pm

I would say your battery is completely dead rather than it being a starter motor problem.

Fit a known good battery on it, jump starting it from a good battery doesnt always work with Scorpios (dont know the reason but it doesn't)

Might be worth trying to start it in Neutral in case its now got a selector switch problem and the starter is inhibited...

but theres big money being wagered on the battery ;)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Simmo on Jan 11^th, 2010, 2:06pm

on 01/11/10 at 13:44:52, Highlander wrote:

but theres big money being wagered on the battery ;)

Steady on there Stuart !! {} . This is not the Stuart we all know !! ::) ::). Betting.... :o

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Jan 11^th, 2010, 2:13pm

I'd bet on this one ;)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by sapte on Jan 11^th, 2010, 3:07pm

the battery is very good now ... voltage is good, I got lights and everything ... my money is on the starter motor :)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Jan 11^th, 2010, 4:42pm

on 01/11/10 at 15:07:57, sapte wrote:

the battery is very good now ... voltage is good, I got lights and everything ... my money is on the starter motor :)

Have you tested the battery?

tried it in N?

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by sapte on Jan 11^th, 2010, 4:44pm

Have to wait till tomorrow to unmount the starter ... it's quite in an inconvenient place and I don't have a garage, so tomorrow is the day ..

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Jan 11^th, 2010, 5:03pm

You may well be right but have a look here,

I've seen this DOZEN'S of times! ;)

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Advice;action=display;num=1244564744;start=0#0

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by PJDavis on Jan 11^th, 2010, 10:45pm

I concur with Highlander. Get a loan of a good proper battery for the car and it will start first time! Not some cheap piece of carp, but a proper guaranteed battery. I had to do the same with my old Zodiac. It's very difficult to test a battery under-load, and putting headlights on and any other electrics on won't really test it. There could be just one semi-dead cell, and if your car is 'finnicky' of this it will 'machine-gun'.

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 10^th, 2010, 2:59pm

hi guys (1997 scorpio 2000 16v auto)

i too have problems starting, new battery fitted yesterday ! it started all day yesterday and last night.

went to it today and it wouldnt start, i left it for about 30 minutes and it started ? then left it running for a while turned it off and you have guessed it ???

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Feb 10^th, 2010, 3:16pm

Hi Frank,

does it crank the engine over or is it completely dead?

if it cranks, does it try to fire?

What was the rating of your new battery?

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 10^th, 2010, 3:20pm

thanks highlander

yes the engine cranks over fast. yes it seems to want to fire

as for the battery ? i just left it to bloke that fitted it.

frank

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Feb 10^th, 2010, 3:28pm

Check Relay R17 and R19 in Auxiliary fuse box

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/fuseboxes.htm

could be a variety of things but check there first, in fact check your battery rating first, Scorpios need a high rated battery

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Tons_of_fun on Feb 10^th, 2010, 3:29pm

It is not unknown for the fuel shut off switch to be activated after a jump start ( happened to me ) ::). It is situated in the boot trim ( next to the boot latch post ), or if it's an estate it's behind the side panel trim on the R / H side. HTH... Craig :)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Feb 10^th, 2010, 3:35pm

I went over a speed bump the other day (a bit quick but you can hit them fast in a Scorpio) ;)

anyway, it activated the fuel cut off switch and cut the engine leaving me to coast gently to the side of the road, it doesnt take too much to set them off.

might be worth a look

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 10^th, 2010, 3:36pm

thanks guys i will go and try that now .

frank

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Feb 10^th, 2010, 3:46pm

I'd also check the loom around the plugs and injectors, these suffer badly from the insulation breaking up, especially as yours is the 2 litre and would have been built 94/95 before the wiring was upgraded.

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 10^th, 2010, 4:03pm

fuel cut off switch is down ?

(sorry guys im not that mechanically minded)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Feb 10^th, 2010, 4:09pm

yep it should be fully pressed home, if it activates it pops up

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Simmo on Feb 10^th, 2010, 4:10pm

The details are Here (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/handbook116.gif) ;)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 10^th, 2010, 4:30pm

thanks for your help guys.

i suppose i'll have to call the RAC out.

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Feb 10^th, 2010, 4:40pm

Thats the best way, a free scan ;) they can tell you if it might be a camshaft or crankshaft sensor etc

keep us posted

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Jonnycab on Feb 11^th, 2010, 1:07am

on 02/10/10 at 14:59:56, frank.a wrote:

Is the small black lead on the battery negative terminal securely tightened ?.....if it's not nice & tight on the terminal, then all kinds of starting & running problems can occur ;)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Feb 11^th, 2010, 11:38am

Was the new battery fitted because of the starting problem?

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 11^th, 2010, 12:16pm

highlander,

yes battery changed because needles were spinning

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 11^th, 2010, 12:43pm

latest scenario ! tried to start the car in park and it was cranking fast but no
go. put it in neutral and it started like a good un. i then drove it around the block
a few times returned home stopped it and now it wont start in park or neutral ?

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Feb 11^th, 2010, 1:06pm

Still cranking though, just wont fire?

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by sapte on Feb 11^th, 2010, 1:08pm

Guys, thank you very much for your assistance. It turned out it was the started motor after all .... it's fixed now.

Once again, thank you very much to everyone ...

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 11^th, 2010, 1:10pm

yes cranking over.

battery terminals all tight .

frank

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Feb 11^th, 2010, 1:29pm

Its not a gear selector problem if its cranking, wait and see if the RAC can give you a fault code.

Did you have a look at the battery rating yet?

Should be around this spec, 650 Cold Cranking Amps and 71 amp-hours capacity

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 11^th, 2010, 4:54pm

RAC man just gone. cam sensor fault ?

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Feb 11^th, 2010, 5:22pm

easy to sort :)

Did he show you where it is?

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/skelly5.jpg

its on the cam cover at the right rear as you look front the front of the car, you can just see it behind the EGR (bottom right) on this pic, its a simple replacement job.

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Feb 11^th, 2010, 5:26pm

I might have one in the shed, will have a look tonite

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 11^th, 2010, 5:30pm

thanks highlander do you know how much they are ? and could i fit it
with my limited knowledge ::)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Feb 11^th, 2010, 5:43pm

Its one bolt and one multiplug , easy :)

Full instructions here :

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/engineman/dohc16v/16vCMP.pdf

Some on ebay for 20-30 quid if you dont want an old one ;)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 11^th, 2010, 5:46pm

i would be grateful for anything highlander. money a bit tight at the moment :(

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Feb 11^th, 2010, 5:47pm

Will have a look, must have one somewhere, its one of the things I always keep when I take an engine to bits ;D

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by scammell_tipper on Feb 11^th, 2010, 10:03pm

hello,i had trouble with my 98 2.3 pinking last summer and was told it might be the camshaft sensor so i took one off a spare car i have and tried it ,the pinking was twice as bad, the spare car i have is the same year and engine so i looked at the identical sensors and there was one part no or letter different so went to fords and was told there was two sensors for that engine but they knew no more, my part no is pf 1037465 cost £21.67. in aug 09 it was not the cure for me so in the summer i mix 97 unleaded with 95 and it seems to stop the pinking regards.

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Tompion on Feb 11^th, 2010, 10:06pm

You should be able to run it with the cam sensor disconnected, just started mine without it connected it ran fine. It’ll be in limp home mode so may not drive well & probably drink even more fuel.

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Jonnycab on Feb 12^th, 2010, 1:16am

Getting slightly confused here...this post started as sapte's problem & is now frank.a's problem ???

Okay, so sapte sorted his problem :)..... but now frank.a has a problem & says the RAC guy has diagnosed a faulty cam sensor ???

frank.a....I don't think the RAC guy has diagnosed your problem right :-/.... as Tompion says, the Scorp will run without a camshaft sensor, but not very well ;).

I'd be more inclined (seeing as it's a 2.0 16V) to suspect that the engine wiring loom (fuel cut off loom) is the culprit in your problem.

The fuel cut off loom is renowned for causing exactly this kind of problem in both the 2.0 & 2.3 16Vs. The insulation on them tends to go brittle & break off causing the bare wires to touch or even break in places. The usual places are at the top of the engine where it goes to the coil packs & the lower part of the loom where it goes to the crankshaft sensor :)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 12^th, 2010, 1:27am

sorry to confuse you jonnycab. the RAC man says it is so who am i to differ ?
maybe i should have started another thread and waste web space !

thanks for your concern though

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Jonnycab on Feb 12^th, 2010, 2:45am

on 02/12/10 at 01:27:08, frank.a wrote:

sorry to confuse you jonnycab. the RAC man says it is so who am i to differ ?
maybe i should have started another thread and waste web space !

thanks for your concern though

???....I'm not concerned, just trying to give some advice :)

The RAC don't know everything about every car & can't necessarily diagnose a problem rightly. Even if their scanner brings up a fault code, it may not necessarily be the cause of your particular problem.

Don't take the RAC guy's word for it, as he may well be wrong.....his scanner won't diagnose a faulty wiring loom, it will just give him a fault code generated by the PCM from the various readings it takes from the engine sensors.

The fuel cut off loom is responsible for relaying all these messages to the PCM from the engine sensors...& if the loom is shot, then the engine sensors won't be relaying the correct signals to the PCM.

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by gozz on Feb 12^th, 2010, 9:32am

Yes JC,the scanner may produce a code number which,when cross referred may say for instance,cam position sensor outside self test parameters,and you can bet your boots it's that bloody loom ::)
GOZZ.

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 14^th, 2010, 3:17pm

latest update just been out and started the car six times ???

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by tonyboy on Feb 14^th, 2010, 5:13pm

on 02/12/10 at 02:45:05, Jonnycab wrote:

???....I'm not concerned, just trying to give some advice :)

The RAC don't know everything about every car & can't necessarily diagnose a problem right

Don't take the RAC guy's word for it, as he may well be wrong.....

Talking about RAC men, my friends mum has a smart car and he wipers stopped working when it was snowing, called the RAC out, he looked over it and said he couldn't find what was wrong, She took it back to the mercedes work shop and it turned out to be a blown fuse. She wrote a letter to the RAC with a copy of the reciept from the work. And got an appologie with a full refund for £80 that mercedes charged......

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Tompion on Feb 14^th, 2010, 11:57pm

The cam sensor is for timing the fuel injectors.

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Jonnycab on Feb 15^th, 2010, 12:46am

Oops....sorry made a slight mistake about the role of the camshaft sensor :-[.....as Tompion states, it is indeed for timing the fuel injectors as well as the ignition timing by determining the position of the camshaft :)

I've edited my earlier post, to save any confusion......Just gotta go & get me coat now ;)

P.S....I still think it's a loom problem :)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Tompion on Feb 15^th, 2010, 1:10am

Don't think it's required for ignition timing, as it fires on both strokes of each cylinder so ignition timing only needs to be from the crank sensor ;)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Jonnycab on Feb 15^th, 2010, 3:22am

Clever clogs :P....Think I'm getting mixed up here with what the camshaft sensor & crankshaft sensor do :-/.... ;)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Tompion on Feb 15^th, 2010, 11:29am

on 02/15/10 at 03:22:34, Jonnycab wrote:

Clever clogs :P....Think I'm getting mixed up here with what the camshaft sensor & crankshaft sensor do :-/.... ;)

;D
Yes does seem strange, it could all be done off 1 half engine speed sensor but I think it’s down to the fact that the larger the diameter of the rotating part the more accurately the timing can be calculated so the flywheel is the best place. I would imagine the injector timing is really calculated at the flywheel and the cam sensor simply tells the PCM which stroke it’s on.

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Tompion on Feb 15^th, 2010, 11:45am

on 02/14/10 at 15:17:27, frank.a wrote:

latest update just been out and started the car six times ???

If it happens again disconnect the cam sensor – if it still won’t start it will likely be the loom (assuming the cam sensor code is the only problem).
Check the wires to the cam sensor haven’t got trapped under the cover for the ignition coils.
You could unravel the wires back to the plastic box over the injectors to see what the insulation is like, but try not to disturb the other wires too much – these looms can be in a terrible state under the tape & conduit.

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 15^th, 2010, 3:54pm

Thanks Tompion
been out and tried to start it today and it wont ! i also disconected the cam sensor and still nothing

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Nunnspoet on Feb 16^th, 2010, 8:48am

I had trouble with my 2.9 v6 12 valve in that for no apparent reason she would not start. I tried all sorts of remedies which failed.
I would eventually get her to start and all would be well for a short period of time, then once again suddenly she just would not fire up >:( >:(. And I would go back to playing about with her untill she eventually fired up, ??? ???. Not satisfactory as when up and running she was faultless, EXCEPT for a slightly sticky throttle and sometimes the revs. would stick arount the 1500 mark when idiling. Now then, I am not an expert but I have never been able to fire up my 12valve with the throttle wide open and I had had to modify the throttle linkeage on the Throttle Housing some years ago as the spindle had packed up (plastic) and importantly I had kept this lubricated up to the time that I let my son take over my car. He had forgotten to lubricate the spindle with the result that it was not closing when the engine was switched off, therefore when the ignition was turned on the ECU found that the throttle was open and would not allow the engine to fire-up. A drop of oil and all has been well since Dec. 14th.

A bit long winded but I hope this helps

Mike :)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 18^th, 2010, 1:22pm

thanks guys for your answers.

can anyone tell me what to do next should i call an auto electrian ?

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Feb 18^th, 2010, 3:33pm

Did you have a look at the wiring?

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Feb 19^th, 2010, 4:37pm

yes i had a look but i cant see much :(

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Mar 1^st, 2010, 8:35pm

Problem solved and thanks for your help guys :D

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Mar 1^st, 2010, 8:41pm

What was it?

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Mar 1^st, 2010, 8:45pm

a new set of plugs !

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Highlander on Mar 2^nd, 2010, 12:10pm

lol they must have been well past their best! :)

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by frank.a on Mar 2^nd, 2010, 12:26pm

all down to short journeys I'm afraid Hghlander :-[

Title: Re: Engine won't start after battery recharge
Post by Mike Holmes on Mar 20^th, 2010, 7:44pm

Reminds me really should get mine checked out! hey can wear away to nothing, that'll do it ;D