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        General >> Problems >> More Autobox Anomalies
        
(Message started by: PJDavis on Apr 25^th, 2010, 11:22am)

Title: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by PJDavis on Apr 25^th, 2010, 11:22am

The car is a pre facelift August 1998 registered Ultima 2.3, it has everything except the Traction Control. I do drive it quickly when I have enough room, the roads up here in the North of Scotland are pretty quiet and in good order. I get an average of about 28 mpg, but on long journeys not much more.
When I bought the car I did all the usual checks, and there was no concerns regarding the Autobox. The colour of the fluid seemed a touch dark, but there was no little bits, it was clear. When I got the car home, almost the first job I did was to change the Autobox fluid and filter. It was fairly clean with only minimal fine particles attached to the magnet strip inside the sump. Having done the change, the car didn't really drive any different. It still changed up through the gears as it should, and still does.
However, the car has always seemed as if it was like a 'four-and-half speed' rather than a four speed! I know that seems ridiculous, and I shall try to explain. Firstly, the car engages gear instantly from cold, and I can move the lever backwards and forwards through 'R' 'N' and 'D' with it engaging perfectly every time. The reason I mention this 'four-and-a-half' speed is because it is more noticeable now that the car has a slightly deeper note to the new Stainless Steel exhaust. But this hasn't changed in the year I've had the car.
Once the car is warm, and driving it hard, say holding the throttle in kick-down position, it goes up through the gears as it should when the Tacho hits about 6200 rpm, about 50mph 1-2, then about 80mph 2-3. This happens whether or not I have the O/D selected. The car changes gear smoothly and precisely. When I hold it just to the floor, it changes the same but at lower speeds, say around 5000 rpm. Now then, when I drive the car gently, with or without the O/D selected, it behaves slightly different. With the O/D light on the dash, the car changes up the 'box smoothly as before, 1-2 at around 15-20 mph, 2-3 at around 40 mph, and if I keep a level foot on the throttle at a speed between 45-50 mph the Tacho drops about another 300 or so rpm! When O/D is selected (dash light off) it does just the same, but then just over 50 mph it drops into the last gear shaving about 1000 rpm of the Tacho. All the speeds are readings off the Speedo, so not true. If I'm driving along and go for the overtake, push the throttle to kick-down, the car snaps down to the right gear smoothly, and revs cleanly, giving power to the wheels at all times, and changing up at the right max speed for that gear, this happens with or without O/D selected. If I press the throttle just sufficient enough to expect a gear-down change, the 'box seems to give a little intermediate change down this 300 or so rpm before going down to what I would consider the 'real' gear! This also happens with or without O/D selected.
Another consideration, before I got the car, and looking through the receipts, I discovered that the car had suffered a split pipe from the Autobox rad. This was rectified, and at the instruction of the then owner the fluid was changed. However, I contacted the 'back-street-garage' that had done the job, and they remembered the car because it was the ONLY Scorpio they have worked on. The previous owner apparently wasn't happy with the position of the pipe that comes out of the shroud beside the near-side headlight, and decided he would re-position it! He busted the union at the rad end. This 'garage' recovered the car (which was out of warranty) and repaired it using new pipes, then changed the fluid. I asked them if they had used the correct 'higher-spec' fluid, and they said that it made no difference as long as it was TQF........................! (I don't know whether that is right or not) This was done by a garage in Digbeth Birminham, at the end of 2002, when the car had about 73k on the clock, (I have all the MOT's) I got the car in February 2009 with about 78k on the clock. They charged £182 for the job! As I said earlier, I changed the fluid and filter almost straight after I got the car, and I have changed it again about 2000 miles later. When I changed the fluid the second time there was absolutely no particles or sludge in the sump, but again I only managed to extract the usual half amount of oil. These oil changes have certainly changed the colour of the oil, but made no real difference to the performance of the 'box.
I've cleaned the MAF sensor, and generally checked as much as I can, it's just a wee niggly thing that I didn't know whether it should be happening, or whether there is something underlying waiting hit my pocket. Course if or when the gearbox is shot, I will need to take my wifes car a wee trip South to a certain gentleman who professes to be able to provide a good Autobox, it'll just be the pain of fitting it.................!!!

Anyone any ideas about this?

Title: Re: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by Tompion on Apr 25^th, 2010, 12:01pm

Sounds like the torque converter locking up as it's supposed too, and unlocking when the load reaches a certain point.

Or to put it another way, don't worry it's supposed to do that.

Title: Re: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by PJDavis on Apr 25^th, 2010, 1:49pm

Thanks for a quick and positive reply. I must confess I was a little perturbed however, the car and it's component parts are all in seemly such good condition, and the car performs SO well, I was hoping that this was nothing serious or to worry much about. I've had a wee scout around the internet and also found this little bit of info'.

http://ezinearticles.com/?Torque-Converter-Lockup&id=113485

I haven't done much work on modern vehicles, my apprenticeship many moons ago was on railway diesels, and the cars of today are so far removed from the 60's and 70's, very different from working on my old simple Zodiac. Although, it has had it's fair share of Autobox problems, but not now because I removed the old C4 Bordeaux 'Box, and it now has a Borg-Warner.

Peter.

Title: Re: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by Mike H on Apr 25^th, 2010, 2:58pm

"wasn't happy with the position of the pipe" http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/huh.gif

Title: Re: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by Mike H on Apr 25^th, 2010, 3:04pm

How much time elapsed between selecting third and dropping these 300 rpm? Could just be it hadn't fully finished changing gear yet. There's a number of multi-plate wet clutches as well, and it's the actual engine computer that mostly does the gear changing to make it as smooth as possible. Which presumably takes time. I.e. not just the gearbox doing it by itself.

Title: Re: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by Mike H on Apr 25^th, 2010, 3:06pm

PS can't find anything that looks like a torque converter lock in the exploded diagram.

Title: Re: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by PJDavis on Apr 25^th, 2010, 5:01pm

The time elapsed between the car selecting 3 rd and the rpm dropping when gentle throttle openings, is quite short, a matter of seconds.

Aye, regarding the plonker not being happy with the position of the pipe!

Title: Re: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by Mike H on Apr 26^th, 2010, 2:45pm

Mine does it as well! Well now that it's all working properly

Well I'll go to the foot of our stairs ...

With O/D off it definitely drops revs a bit after getting into third, and it's got nowt to do with coming off the gas even a little bit, cos I wasn't

So can we assume that it's normal then ;D

Title: Re: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by Dave2302 on Apr 27^th, 2010, 5:48pm

Yes guys it is the converter locking and unlocking, which is determined by the ecu from inputs like road speed, engine rpm, and throttle position.

Also, the converters won't lock when they're stone cold, the ecu waits until the engine temp comes up a wee bit.

PJ, if you're passing my gaff sometime, I'll happily check it out for you and supply a coffee lol, but I'm sure it's fine from what you have said.

Regards Dave

Title: Re: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by Mike H on Apr 27^th, 2010, 6:37pm

How about that

Title: Re: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by Mike H on Apr 27^th, 2010, 7:36pm

This is interesting as well

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/automatic-transmission.htm

Title: Re: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by PJDavis on Apr 27^th, 2010, 7:57pm

Hi Dave. You're over by the 'Five Sisters' aren't yer? I'll get over there this year sometime and we can have a chat. I've got 7 weeks in the summer so I'll do a bit of camping over your way maybe.

Peter.

Title: Re: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by Dave2302 on Apr 28^th, 2010, 9:13am

Peter,

Sounds good to me, yeah very near Kintail, can see the Sisters across the Loch from my windows, we're just up the road a couple of miles.

PM me when yr coming and I'll give you the address.

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by PJDavis on Apr 28^th, 2010, 5:31pm

Aye Dave I'll be sure to send a message later on in the year as to when I'm thinking of a bit of 'roughing-it'. Loverly part of the West you're in.

Peter.

Title: Re: More Autobox Anomalies
Post by Mike H on May 17^th, 2010, 12:28am

Something else I've just noticed, if using overdrive, if you come off the gas pedal totally it unlocks, so it's back onto the torque converter, then when you go back onto the gas it locks again shortly after and so the revs drop