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        General >> Problems >> Brake judder
        
(Message started by: Robin.M on Jun 2nd, 2010, 8:30pm)
Title: Brake judder
Post by Robin.M on Jun 2nd, 2010, 8:30pm
Hi all

I have the opportunity to by a 2.5 Diesel Scorpio, but it has very bad judder/vibration on braking - steering wheel shakes - more pronounced at final braking effort. Removed both front wheels and both discs are very worn. Cannot see anything else. Any thoughts? ABS light is also on

Geraint
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by Matt on Jun 2nd, 2010, 8:39pm
give the lower arm bushes a good feel, also the trackrods
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by faffi on Jun 3rd, 2010, 7:43am
Warped or unevenly worn discs is a known issue, though - I typically got vibrations every 6000 miles or so. A stupid design that requires that you glue the discs to the hub, otherwise dirt and rust will find its way between the hub and disc, distorting it as you tighten the wheel nuts.
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by Robin.M on Jun 6th, 2010, 4:00pm
New discs & pads + extra clean with wire brush = judder gone

Thanks for the replies

Geraint
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by faffi on Jun 6th, 2010, 8:33pm
Been there, done that. If you didn't glue them in places, chances are you will warp the discs next time you change wheels - the discs will not stay in place and when they slide out a bit, dirt will find its place between the disc and the flange. Unless you want to take it off and clean everything every time a wheel come off, the discs needs to be glued in place.
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by Matt on Jun 6th, 2010, 8:49pm
never heard of the disc needing gluing, they warp due to the heat and pressure the Scorpio subjects them to, hence its always recommended on them to fit a better quality disc. A smear of copper grease maybe but not glue, most cars that run the McPherson front strut are the same setup, so its not a scorpio only problem, also ive never heard of any dealer recommending you to glue the discs on, but you should refit the spring retaining clip over one of the studs but no one does lol
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by faffi on Jun 6th, 2010, 10:09pm
The shops around here consider it mandatory to glue them on, saying that failing this will almost guarantee the discs to warp again. Don't recall the name of the stuff, but it came in a brown tube and the stuff was brownish as well. Very strong, they use heat and a sledge hammer to remove them when the discs needs replacing.

Not knowing this and buying cheap non-standard discs that would warp quickly, it got far better when I got a glob of glue from a mechanic.
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by gozz on Jun 6th, 2010, 10:52pm
Blimey what a palaver ! I've been doing it wrong for forty years ;)
                                         GOZZ.
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by Jonnycab on Jun 7th, 2010, 1:43am
Glue ?.....  http://smilies.blazemint.com/s/contrib/blackeye/hihi.gif

The torque of the wheel nuts on the wheel hold the discs flush & in place....never heard of glueing the discs on  http://smilies.blazemint.com/s/otn/confused/az.gif

Sometimes it's necessary to use a big hammer to get the discs off, but only because they've been on there for a long while & rusted on.  http://smilies.blazemint.com/s/contrib/sarge/TheSmile.gif

Faffi, if it came in a brown tube & it was brownish, then it's most likely copper grease  http://smilies.blazemint.com/s/cwm/cwm/wink.gif
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by faffi on Jun 7th, 2010, 6:54am
Nope, that was what I had used up until then ;) Deffo glue, no doubt about it.
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by Robin.M on Jun 7th, 2010, 10:13am
On my other 2.5 diesel, one of the front discs refuses to come of - It looks like I will have to grind down through the disc flange and try and split it with a wedge - ayone done this before

Geriant
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by Mike H on Jun 7th, 2010, 4:00pm
What about a 3-legged puller?
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by Highlander on Jun 7th, 2010, 4:03pm
Big hammer always works for me :)
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by Highlander on Jun 7th, 2010, 4:04pm

on 06/06/10 at 22:09:25, faffi wrote:
The shops around here consider it mandatory to glue them on, saying that failing this will almost guarantee the discs to warp again. Don't recall the name of the stuff, but it came in a brown tube and the stuff was brownish as well. Very strong, they use heat and a sledge hammer to remove them when the discs needs replacing.

Not knowing this and buying cheap non-standard discs that would warp quickly, it got far better when I got a glob of glue from a mechanic.


Is someone on the wind up?? ;D
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by Tekno on Jun 7th, 2010, 4:08pm
glueing :o
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by Highlander on Jun 7th, 2010, 4:11pm
I might try that glue stuff next time I'm replacing the cable ties that hold my calipers on! ;D
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by heliphil58 on Jun 7th, 2010, 4:16pm
I worked on fords in a dealership for years and never glued on a disc where abouts are you Faffi
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by a900one on Jun 7th, 2010, 6:11pm
I have had to cut down through the disc and split with a chisel before. I have never glued a disc on, and try not to use a big hamer to get them off, possible damage to wheel bearing. As I dont use it very often I have had a buildup of rust on the outside edge of the disc which has caused brake judder, just cleaned the fronts on saturday to get rid of judder.
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by faffi on Jun 7th, 2010, 7:52pm

on 06/07/10 at 16:16:37, heliphil58 wrote:
I worked on fords in a dealership for years and never glued on a disc where abouts are you Faffi


Norway. I asked the head mechanic today when I was in to buy some fuel cleaner for my Mondeo - because of this discussion - about why they glued the front discs on. And he confirmed it was to prevent them from slipping off a little when the wheels were off, something that easily made dirt enter. THis again warped the discs.

And if you think glue cannot be strong enough to make a difference, consider that the wings on you typical Boing etc. airplane is basically held in place with glue ;)
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by a900one on Jun 7th, 2010, 9:58pm
I dont think most people take there wheels off that often, after a while they stick to the hub with rust etc and dont move that easily.  As GOZZ has said that he has not used glue in 40+ years neither have I in 40 + years. Mind you in the past discs would last 4-5 sets of pads, now you are lucky if can make them last 2 sets.
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by Snoopy on Jun 8th, 2010, 8:15am
The correct method of retaing the disc in place is to use a NEW spring washer which fits over the one of the studs .. Never ever in my whole life have I ever heard of GLUE on a brake disc... What a palaver and when if ever you need to get them off again well more than the help of him above will be needed......!

The discs warp because of uneven heat tranference . New discs should be cured and bedded in before putting them to heavy braking.. there is a procedure for doing it.
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by Mike H on Jun 8th, 2010, 6:29pm
TBH, would've thought a bit of copper grease on the back to keep the crud and rust out might be useful. Else ditto.
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by shooshyneman on Jun 12th, 2010, 10:08am
You can always tell a good motor mechanic by the size of his hammer! Glue??? Dont you realise it has to come off at some point.  Thin discs cause the judder.
Title: Re: Brake judder
Post by lleewar on Jun 12th, 2010, 12:13pm
Snoopy is so right about bedding in the new discs and brakes. You should leave at all costs heavy breaking for around the next 200 miles for the correct adjustment of the brake linings to the discs. No warping and uneven wear.


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