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        General >> Problems >> Boot Unlocking
        
(Message started by: lpmurphy on Jun 28^th, 2010, 7:34pm)

Title: Boot Unlocking
Post by lpmurphy on Jun 28^th, 2010, 7:34pm

I have a problem with unlocking the boot when pressing the boot release button. This should normally actuate the motor to release the boot locking mechanism. Never had an issue with this & it just stopped working one day.

Have tried to find info on a fuse and/or relay feeding the motor without success. Does one exist? Would like to have info before I go looking at the mechanism etc. Is there a micro-switch activated when you push the button? Does anyone know how its supposed to work?

Boot will open with the key as I don't nomally use the key fob at all due to issues with the signal being picked up by the car - it never worked properly so I just gave up on it!

Appreciate any help or advice

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by scorpio_man on Jun 28^th, 2010, 8:04pm

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=admin;action=display;num=1276890020

hth

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Simmo on Jun 29^th, 2010, 6:25am

There is another issue which you should check. In the saloon the loom runs near the offside boot hinge. If it is not held back out of the way of the hinge it can get knocked continuously and the wiring gets damaged. You may have to unravel some of the outer tape covering to check IF you think that is a possibility.

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lpmurphy on Jun 29^th, 2010, 1:47pm

Hi Simmo...many thanks for your reply. I did check the condition of the wiring @ that location & it all appears undamaged - thankfully!

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by tlundkvi on Jun 29^th, 2010, 2:02pm

The solenoid could also be broken, you could test it by connecting it to a power source.

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Highlander on Jun 29^th, 2010, 2:23pm

Does the actual boot lock press in enough to release it?

They are quite prone to seizing up/sticking

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lpmurphy on Jun 29^th, 2010, 2:26pm

Hi scorpio_man & Simmo. Had a look at my issue this morning with the photos from the link scorpio_man kindly posted. It appears that the mechanism in mine is somewhat different than the photos in the link. Problem is I don't know how to post my photographs up! (will send photos direct to scorpio_man by e-mail but would like to post for others benefit). I also checked all the fuses and relay coils in the main & aux fuse board & all were ok. I know there are some others distributed here and there throughtout the vehicle as well but I didn't check these.

There are three wires into the solendoid but only two are terminated in the triangular shaped plug...tested these but none had +12V on them. The pins were a bit dirty but I cleaned them up a bit. Assume one of these will switch to +12V when the key switch is pressed in via the micro-switch. The link that scorpio_man provided showed a blue coloured switch whcih is monted on the lower open/close mechanism of the boot but I don't seem to have the 'white disc' that scorpio_man described on the upper section where the micro-switch is located mounted on the barrel assembly of the key switch. I don't know how to take apart this upper assembly; the lower locking mechanism seems to be far easier to disassemble. I still don't know the sequence of operation of the mechanism and how the power is fed through and its source!

Appreciate any assistance!

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lpmurphy on Jun 29^th, 2010, 2:31pm

Hi tlundkvi & Highlander - didn't check the solenoid yet electrically but it meachanically moves ok. There appears to be enough movement when the key switch is pressed; it compresses the spring ok so I'm assuming that this is the way it should be?

Thanks for your replies!

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Highlander on Jun 29^th, 2010, 2:38pm

Is yours a saloon? Scorpiomans pics are of an estate, similar but different ;D

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lpmurphy on Jun 29^th, 2010, 2:42pm

Hi Highlander - I see what you mean! I'm glad you recognised that it was an estate; mine is indeed a saloon. Know how I can upload the photos of mine to the forum?

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Highlander on Jun 29^th, 2010, 2:45pm

i use www.tinypic.com

you'll need to resize them to 640 x 480 maximum if they are bigger than that.

or email them to me and i'll post them

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Tompion on Jun 29^th, 2010, 2:50pm

This is the layout of the saloon.
Don't think relays are involed.

http://i.imgur.com/l7ijI7B.jpg

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Highlander on Jun 29^th, 2010, 3:08pm

A picture paints a thousand words :)

Did you try the tester when the button is pressed lp?

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Mike H on Jun 29^th, 2010, 3:11pm

So, actual unlocking solenoid is white thing top right.

Centre key lock has wires coming out of it as well, but not directly linked, so I'm guessing pressing the button just sends a signal to the PCM, to open the boot,however PCM will not if car is supposed to be completely locked.

Whereas turning the key acts directly on the pushrod to the catch

(?)

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by tlundkvi on Jun 29^th, 2010, 3:13pm

lpmurphy, if it's the solenoid, the easiest way to replace it is to remove the whole lock (latch-part that is). The metal hook interconnecting the barrel and lock can be a pain to get right, especially when putting it all back. It goes pretty easy (=2-3 fags during the whole operation) when the hook is connected before the lock is put back.

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Tompion on Jun 29^th, 2010, 3:23pm

Yes white thing top right is the motor (looks like a solenoid but is a motor). There’s a track switch arrangement inside that can play up & a diode that can blow apart.
As highlander implied you need to press the button to get a voltage.

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Mike H on Jun 29^th, 2010, 3:42pm

Yep it's a motor not a solenoid. Presumably goes through a complete cycle when operated.

According to central_locking.pdf looks like release switch goes back to CCM via black/yellow wire (its earth is black/blue), then CCM operates motor via orange/black - yellow/green.

My money's on a bad connection that won't give the motor the current it needs. Possibly

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Highlander on Jun 29^th, 2010, 4:06pm

Hi Liam,

got your pics but Tompions shows everything we need i think and isnt upside down ;)

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lpmurphy on Jun 29^th, 2010, 4:11pm

Hi Guys!! Many thanks for the postings! I was out looking at the whole thing while ye were psoting so sorry for not being around. So, story so far - Three contacts on the micro-switch; two outermost close when the key switch is pushed so micro-switch appears to work. Tried to power up solenoid/motor but only had 800mA available so it may not be enough. Will try to get a higher ampage supply to test. However, tested continuity on the two wire supply and got a reading of 100 Ohms.

May be an issue with the solenoid/motor? Only way to be sure is take out and replace which can be tricky as said already due to the 'link' bar between the locking mechanism and the barrel assembly - esp as there is a plastic part on the barrel assy where the 'link' rod goes through; thinking of it being easily broken!

Other possibility is the CCM signal not getting through?

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lpmurphy on Jun 29^th, 2010, 4:22pm

Hi Highlander - thanks for offering to post pics. Don't understand what you mean by being upside down as such? My pics were taken from the viewpoint of me sitting in boot and looking into the locking mechanism. With ref to Tompion's kindly supplied pic my solenoid/motor is on the lower right as I look from the rear of mechanism (sitting in boot). Not being picky Highlander - just want to be sure that everyone understands the orientation that I'm looking at! Thanks

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lpmurphy on Jun 29^th, 2010, 4:23pm

Doh! Just read post! Orientation described wrong! Orientation is solenoid/motor is on lower left! Doh! Doh! I'm loosing it -

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lpmurphy on Jun 29^th, 2010, 5:19pm

Hi Guys....just tested the solenoid/motor with a high current source and not a budge! If there is a track/diode maybe its blown? The only thing that concerns me is that I did get a reading of 100 Ohms across the contacts but yet when I give it voltage (+12V) nothing happens! That doesn't square up completely with the idea of a blown diode/track or does it? Comments welcome.

Assuming it's the solenoid/motor then is it best to get a new one? A second hand one would have aged components and I may run into the same trouble again! I'm assuming the only place to get one is a FMD or are there other cheaper sources?

Aprreciate comments re this or anything I may have overlooked!

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Tompion on Jun 29^th, 2010, 5:50pm

Just tested it.

When testing for voltage ensure the car is unlocked else you’ll get nought.
Black wire permanent earth.
Black/Orange 12 volts with button pressed – but only for approx 1 second on each press as it comes from the computer.

Yep my pictures downside up :)

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lpmurphy on Jun 29^th, 2010, 6:03pm

Hi Tompion - thanks for testing yours. With car unlocked my test was -

Disconnected solenoid/motor from wiring loom
Connected a direct 12V supply to the solenoid/motor connector Black/Orange 12V, Black negative
Reversed connections as well just to be sure but tested it as above first
Nothing happened so assuming solenoid/motor is screwed.

Will re-test and take voltage reading when key switch pressed to make sure sure I have 12V signal from computer. Did you organise it so that the you could read the voltage with key switch pressed with the boot open or closed? I'm assuming the signal would not be present with the boot open if the key switch was pressed?

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Tompion on Jun 29^th, 2010, 6:16pm

Tested with the boot open, the wires cunningly change colours at the plug, scratching my head why I couldn't get a resistance at first:

I only get 5.5 ohms between the black & green/yellow – the motor wires.

~~Try pulling the plunger out & then pressing the button, it should return – might indicate a problem with the track.~~
(Struck out the above as I've just looked inside the old one & the plunger is free to move with no effect in the retracted position).

I used a second hand one when mine broke a few years ago.

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Mike H on Jun 30^th, 2010, 4:51pm

100 Ohms seems too high for a motor, on the other hand it's got a diode in series, that will mess up your meter trying to get as sensible reading. Have you tried Ohming it in the opposite direction? Should be infinity, if so then diode is OK. Also at least there is some sort of continuity in the opposite direction.

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Mike H on Jun 30^th, 2010, 5:00pm

OK so as usual keep forgetting to go to end of thread. ;D

5.5 Ohms sounds more like it, but can't square that with the presence of the diode. (?)

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lpmurphy on Jun 30^th, 2010, 5:24pm

Hi Mike H! AFAIK tested it both ways & got 100 Ohms which doesn't make sense - if the diode is blown it should be o/c in both directions and o/c in one direction if not blown. Won't have time to work on this as I'm travelling over the next few days so I've just disconnected the locking mechanism for the time being.

I intend to check to see if I'm getting a signal from the computer as Tompion suggested and re-check the wiring colours and re-check my readings for sanity! Won't be able to do this until next Mon.

Could replace diode if it was the issue but only if I can open solenoid/motor casing without damaging it.

Will let you all know how I'm getting on with it!

Very much appreciate all the helpful suggestions from the forum members - thanks again

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Highlander on Jun 30^th, 2010, 11:39pm

Want another motor to try first?

pm me your address

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Tompion on Jul 1^st, 2010, 11:39am

on 06/30/10 at 16:51:54, Mike H wrote:

Thought I’d better have a look inside the old one to check it was a diode :)
I wasn’t sure what it was so googled for the number which seems to indicate it is a diode (a small white sphere with a black band & 1N5061PH), but it’s in parallel across the motor terminals.

I’ve also modified my previous post as manually moving the plunger has no effect in the retracted position.

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Tompion on Jul 1^st, 2010, 12:25pm

http://i.imgur.com/5fi6s0j.jpg

It opens easily enough, keep your thumb on the plunger to stop the spring flying out.
The contact on the plastic part of the plunger swivels about the guides & tracks in the other half of the case.
I’ve only laid it out this way for the picture, you’d assemble it all in the half with the motor.

This one had a broken tooth in the pinion that gears with the rack – it caused the motor to jamb open so I couldn’t close the boot.
I replaced the tooth with a steel pin & then found the motor had packed up so replaced the whole thing with one from shaun.

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Simmo on Jul 1^st, 2010, 2:03pm

Another Tompion dissection !! :)

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Mike H on Jul 1^st, 2010, 6:45pm

on 07/01/10 at 11:39:53, Tompion wrote:

A-ha! I know why that is, it's to stop back EMF from the motor blowing up the CCM.

Confused? You will be ;D

So either the diagram is drawn wrong or it's the other type that incorporates a switch so works more like the door locks. And this has a switch in it

Anyway explains why it Ohms in 2 directions, but 100R stil seems high. Maybe bad brushes or winding (?)

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lpmurphy on Jul 1^st, 2010, 10:17pm

Hi Tompion & Mike H..you have certainly been busy with this. Now at least we have some idea what the plunger is operated by - a small DC motor. Tompion has identified that there is a diode in use and Mike H has indicated its to deal with the the back EMF of the motor. If the dioede has malfunctioned they normally o/c but if it has failed in the s/c mode then the back EMF may have damaged the CCM output for the boot lock?

I will check all this when I get back from my trip and I will up-date the forum.
Thanks Tompion and Mike H for your hard work on this!

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Mike H on Jul 2^nd, 2010, 9:34am

I doubt it, my money's on it being nearly o/c with a resistance of 100R, need to try it on a proper 12V source see if it runs. 100R will only get 120mA, I don't think that's enough even for a small motor.

I would've thought motor / brushes wearing out from years of use is more likely.

You could try testing for the 12V pulse from the CCM activating lead when the button is pressed with a Voltmeter but it will have a short 'on' time. Meaning may be difficult for the Voltmeter to register it in time

But my first option would most likely be take the module apart and see if I can get the motor to work before I start worrying about what else could be wrong

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Highlander on Jul 2^nd, 2010, 9:45am

My first option would be to plug in another motor and see if thats the problem ;D

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Tompion on Jul 2^nd, 2010, 10:02am

on 07/02/10 at 09:45:15, Highlander wrote:

My first option would be to plug in another motor and see if thats the problem ;D

I agree :)

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Mike H on Jul 2^nd, 2010, 10:05am

Re diode, does it look like this?

http://www.datasheetcatalog.org/datasheet/powerex/1N5059.pdf

One of the things it could be used for is "arc suppression" which makes sense.

On thing that puzzles me is the rack and pinion arrangement implies it has to be reversed to return the plunger, but I can't see how the Voltage to the motor can be reversed

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Mike H on Jul 2^nd, 2010, 10:07am

on 07/02/10 at 09:45:15, Highlander wrote:

My first option would be to plug in another motor and see if thats the problem ;D

LOL yes you could you've problee got zillions of spare ones lying about

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Highlander on Jul 2^nd, 2010, 10:46am

One of the Zillions is on its way to County Kildare ;)

http://www.beersteak.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/dancing-leprechaun-animated-02.gif (http://www.beersteak.com/breaking-news/dancing-leprechaun-animated-gifs-free-codes-site/)

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Mike H on Jul 2^nd, 2010, 11:14am

Very good ;D

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Tompion on Jul 2^nd, 2010, 12:24pm

on 07/02/10 at 10:05:39, Mike H wrote:

Yep component looks like that.

The big coil spring just pushes it back (it’s a six start on the motor worm so no problem driving it “the wrong way”).
So presumably the diode’s for dumping what’s generated.

Having looked at the switch/track arrangement it’s not very relevant in this case as the switch is for the centre connector which isn’t used in this fitment. There is however a dead section (black in the picture just before the plastic rivet) at the end of the track to the red motor wire. This causes mine to chatter as the spring keeps pushing it back & making contact again until the power goes off – not sure if it’s meant to do that, don’t remember hearing it on the old one, I can’t see any reason not to keep it powered/stopped briefly, in which case you could probably do away with the track & connect it direct.

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Mike H on Jul 3^rd, 2010, 8:04pm

That explains a lot, didn't think the spring could do that. So basically, the CCM runs it out, then just "lets go".

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Tompion on Jul 4^th, 2010, 12:08am

That's it.

Would it blow that diode if you connected the motor the wrong way?

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Mike H on Jul 4^th, 2010, 9:56am

I dunno seems a tough little thing according to the data sheet but if e.g. straight across the battery supply yes it would!

However depends whether the CCM output has any overload protection or current limiting, supposing it has and were limited to below 2.5 Amps then should survive.

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lleewar on Jul 11^th, 2010, 2:42pm

Hi Simmo, In an earlier post regarding my boot stopping working with the remote or by the button, you also told me to check the boot wiring and it was all a OK. It seems like the white motor has gone.
Highlander, would you have another spare working motor?? Regards Lee

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Simmo on Jul 11^th, 2010, 2:52pm

Hi Lee. Thank's for the update. Just in case you're not aware the post with all the photos is now 'locked' in How to do Things. Best wishes, Mike.

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lleewar on Jul 11^th, 2010, 3:05pm

Thanks Mike. Noted. Regards Lee

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Highlander on Jul 11^th, 2010, 11:09pm

on 07/11/10 at 14:42:23, lleewar wrote:

I think i might have ;)

pm me your address again

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lleewar on Jul 13^th, 2010, 12:30am

Hi Stuart PM sent

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lpmurphy on Jul 28^th, 2010, 6:15pm

Hi All..sorry for being out of touch re this problem but I was on holidays and was waiting for the part Highlander had kindly posted me (white solenoid - actually a motor & gear mechanism). Having returned from holidays the part Highlander posted me was waiting for me at home & I fitted it to-day. Hey presto! It worked! Thanks Highlander!! Looking at my broken white solenoid it seems to me that the motor had given up the ghost - tested the diode on motor & it was working ok. Thank you all for your helpful contributions - much appreciated!

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by lleewar on Jul 28^th, 2010, 10:16pm

Hi Stuart, Received the motor today. Will fit like lpmurphy and let you know if all went well Regards Lee

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Toriitom on Aug 13^th, 2010, 9:11pm

Hi All

I had a go at my tailgate lock this afternoon in the glorious sunshine - YES we had lots of sunshine today and the forecast is for more tomorrow; that will please the Ulster GP riders.

My tailgate would only open with the key, which is a real pain in the proverbial.

I stripped the inner panel off and then removed the nuts that hold the number plate panel. I removed the barrel and took it to the workbench for a strip down. Awkward little bu%%er - the top two plates for the key fell on the bench and I didn't know which went where. I cleaned out all the crud and reassembled it with new grease. It was trial and error with the key plates but I eventually got them right.

Cleaned the whole thing up and re-greased where needed. Refitted to my car and it works a treat. Well pleased I must say. It was touch and go as to whether it was going back together properly; you just have to be patient.

I would not recommend this to everyone, only those who have patience and a good memory as to where everything goes.

HTH

Tom

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Highlander on Aug 13^th, 2010, 9:16pm

on 08/13/10 at 21:11:09, Toriitom wrote:

I would not recommend this to everyone, only those who have patience and a good memory as to where everything goes

I find the digital camera on the mobile has an excellent memory ;)

Title: Re: Boot Unlocking
Post by Toriitom on Aug 13^th, 2010, 9:48pm

on 08/13/10 at 21:16:26, Highlander wrote:

I find the digital camera on the mobile has an excellent memory ;)

That reminds me of my school days when we were told to stop using calculators (abacus) because they stopped us using our brains. My teacher need not have worried as I didn't get any initially.