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        General >> Problems >> Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
        
(Message started by: ADroste on Jul 10th, 2010, 5:51pm)
Title: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by ADroste on Jul 10th, 2010, 5:51pm
I lost nearly all coolant after the plastic pipe connector in the line to the thermostat housing had broken. http://i28.tinypic.com/25kpq48.jpg[/IMG]
http://i32.tinypic.com/29o4y9k.jpg
http://i28.tinypic.com/25kpq48.jpg

After further investigation I also found the brass pipe sitting loose in the thermostat housing.
http://i30.tinypic.com/df9503.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/33zaa36.jpg

I think I will manage to get a replacement for the plastic part. But what about the brass part respectively the thermostat body? The thread of both parts seem to be worn.
http://i25.tinypic.com/jqpzk8.jpg
http://i25.tinypic.com/10pvehh.jpg

Do you think, since there is still some thread material left, I can glue them together? I know there is a high pressure (1 to 2 bar?) and a high temperature of up to 120°C.
http://i26.tinypic.com/o5cjli.jpg
http://i29.tinypic.com/2j1k7ig.jpg


Or will I require a new thermostat body? Would it be available from an FMD or second source?

Regards
Armin

EDITED BY SNOOPY BECAUSE OF PICTURE SIZE (TOO BIG)
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by Tompion on Jul 10th, 2010, 6:39pm
The thermostat housing is part of the inlet manifold & is very expensive. A decent second hand one or changing to a 2.0L set up is probably your best bet as chances are yours isn’t worth repair.
Not that it matters much, I doubt the thread is worn on the brass stub, it’s just got the stripped thread from the manifold between the threads.

Some people have glued them in but I wouldn’t want to risk it.

It’s a very fine (.5) saw tooth tapered thread.
Cleaning up the thread on the stub,
turning a bit off the flange so it goes in deeper & cuts a new thread is a possibility (together with fitting a new O-ring & some loctite).
Chances are however the housing will split as they’re usually pretty fragile.

Some transits use the same manifold.
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by gozz on Jul 10th, 2010, 6:43pm
Armin.
My brass tube fell out,I repaired it successfully by pressing it back in with some MILLIPUT as recommended by Baz on here,I drilled through the plastic each side into the brass first,then tapped a small thread ,I then enlarged the holes in the plastic to take two little countersunk stainless screws,bedding it all back with the Milliput which is a two part epoxy resin which is waterproof and slow setting.I did remove the manifold first for ease of working though.
Make sure your head gasket is OK,because gasket failure tends to cause these problems,or indeed vice versa.
               GOZZ.
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by ADroste on Jul 17th, 2010, 4:00pm

on 07/10/10 at 17:51:30, ADroste wrote:
...Or will I require a new thermostat body? Would it be available from an FMD or second source?...

The dealer (and his computer ;-) ) confirmed that the plastic body is the intake manifold, and that Transit 2.3 and Scorpio 2.3 manifold share the same part number. More than 500 Euro for the part is not bad. So I decided to try a repair. I ordered a replacement for the broken plastic part and got this hose assy.
http://i30.tinypic.com/v4tlj6.jpg
But the diameter of the new plastic piece is smaller and sits too sloggy in the hose. I doubt I would ever get it tight. It seems I got this part with the red arrow, where the heat protection makes more sense because of the proximity to the exhaust manifold.
http://i27.tinypic.com/34ewyzc.jpg
Can someone with access to Ford spare parts catalogue tell me the correct number for the plastic connetor pipe? 1 316 759 (18K359 AA) is in any case the wrong one.

Thanks
Armin
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by Tompion on Jul 17th, 2010, 4:35pm
Armin

The connector is the same both sides. It looks as though someone has modified your connector & either used a bigger hose or forced it into the hose so it now doesn’t fit the connector.
You can use a piece of 15 mm central heating copper pipe with an olive soldered on each end (this is a little small but a jubilee clip will hold it). Alternatively a yorkshire coupling (solder ring coupling) on each end will be slightly too large but you can force the hose on.

Dave
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by ADroste on Jul 17th, 2010, 9:56pm

on 07/17/10 at 16:35:46, Tompion wrote:
...The connector is the same both sides. It looks as though someone has modified your connector...
Yes, Ford Cologne ;D. I'm absolutely sure that the car left the company in this built state. But I admit that it seems to be nonsense to use bigger hose diameter if the diameter of the pipe is given. But maybe in April 1998 no other hose material was available. ;) Up to now I was not able to have a close look to the other end of the big hose. (Too much aggregates there.) I will try tomorrow.

Thank you Dave. I will think about your advice. But if really Ford did a modification to the car, then the piece must be a catalogue-part. Probably not a Ford catalogue. It seems worth googeling a little bit.

Regards
Armin
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by Tompion on Jul 17th, 2010, 10:43pm
Armin

The hose should be in 2 pieces with that new connector you have joining them approximately 470mm from the stat housing, the other end going to the matrix which will be that size.

Looking at your picture you have a much shorter length of hose so maybe you have 2 connectors.

If there is another connector it will likely be brittle, it’ll probably break if you try & separate it but best to replace it anyway.

Dave
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by Tompion on Jul 17th, 2010, 11:37pm
Armin

A picture of the hose on the manifold & it’s part no.

Dave

http://i.imgur.com/wGPvhF0.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/7P2Vi7R.jpg
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by ADroste on Jul 18th, 2010, 10:52am
I got it !!! After googeling some hours I suddenly found that Webasto uses such deminishing pieces. Instantaneously there was a click in my (small) brain: The car was ordered and built with a Webasto parking heater. Off course such systems make thorough use of the car heating system.

In the meantime I could confirm that the manifold/hose configuration does not look like on your manifold picture, Dave. The (remarkably thicker) hose is fed downwards and then to the left motor bay wall. There it disappears unter the left front wing, exactly where the parking heater is mounted. Another hose runs back to the position where in the manifold picture the hose ends (and connects to the heater matrix hose). Both hoses are thicker than the usual heater pipes.

As a conclusion I can say: my car's heating system was modified by Ford works in parts by thicker hoses, and they used 19/15mm adapters to fit to the a/c system. So I have to look for such a plastic diminishing piece with brass inlays at a Webasto dealer.

Glueing of the brass pipe to the manifold has made progress. We will see, if it was successfull. I will keep you informed - if you want (or not ;-)).

Regards
Armin
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by Tompion on Jul 18th, 2010, 12:31pm
Armin

Do you find the Webasto system works well?

Dave
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by ADroste on Jul 18th, 2010, 12:42pm

on 07/18/10 at 12:31:41, Tompion wrote:
...Do you find the Webasto system works well?...
Given that no airlocks are in the system, yes. We made thorough use of it last winter. Although forbidden, we programmed the clock starting in the garage half an hour before we left the house in the morning and half an hour before leaving work. So warm car in any case and moreover melted snow on roof and screens.

Regards
Armin  
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by PJDavis on Jul 18th, 2010, 4:15pm
Just to butt-in here.   I had a Kenlowe system fitted to a previous car, very well worth doing.   It's just a 3kw heater with a pump that's jumped into the cooling system between the radiator and heater matrix.   You can set the temperature up so that it clicks off at a couple of degrees before the thermostat starts to open, thus the hot coolant never reaches the radiator.   The Kenlowe took about 15-20 mins to get the car up to almost working temperature, costing about 12p of electricity.   Note, if you were considering this, the Kenlowe does get very slightly damp outside and because of this it flicks off RCD type electricity units.   I had to rewire an old-fashioned type fuse box up for the shed, this cured that problem.   Good system, never needed choke on the fuel, and always had a warm car right from the start in the coldest of weather.   No cold-starts, so less engine wear.   I think the Kenlowe system costs about £170.
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3), now manifold de
Post by ADroste on Jul 30th, 2010, 1:28am
Update:
I managed to get the reduction pipe, and also managed to get the brass pipe glued, and tight.
http://i30.tinypic.com/1zm2mi0.jpg
But awfully only for two sharp rides. Then I faced massive coolant loss, and found this:
http://i25.tinypic.com/m79xj6.jpg
The crack is more than ten centimeters long. So no chance for repair. I need a replacement manifold.

But it seems that there is no chance to quickly get a used part, although it is the same for Transit 2.3, and Galaxy 2.3, and most likely even to VW Sharan, and SEAT Alhambra. I am now waiting for a response from fordpartsuk.com and a source in Germany.

I suspect the rapid crack in the manifold may be caused by a thermostat malfunction (causing higher pressure). I dismantled it and found this messy thing:
http://i25.tinypic.com/e8swzk.jpg
I guess it is the stuff, which people report to be washed out during heater flushing.

But what is strange is that there is apparently no snot on the other side of the thermostat.
http://i27.tinypic.com/r25i82.jpg

But heating worked. I performed the boiling test, and couldn't detect an opening. Maybe it is difficult to see. But I think it should be replaced also.

I have not dimantled the manifold yet. But up to now I have no sign of a head defect.

And by the way. the looms seem to be okay, despite 120k miles.

Is there any advice how to dismantle the manifold?

Regards
Armin
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by gozz on Jul 30th, 2010, 8:42am
One little tip,underneath the manifold nearer the front is an angle bracket supporting it,bolted to the engine.It' best to remove the bolt from the engine when removing the manifold because there is a brass sleeve in the plastic which virtually always turns with the bolt.
The snot does look like oil/water emulsion as in head problem.If your thermostat doesn't open in boiling water,do replace it,that is what causes these problems,the temp gauge is not always reliable and may not register overheating.
                                   GOZZ.
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by ADroste on Aug 16th, 2010, 9:10pm
I bought a new manifold from fordpartsuk.com, and managed to assemble the motor. However, as Gozz suspected, there is oil in the coolant. I didn't dare to drive the car. just let it idle around 98°C for a while. I had topped up the reservoir completely (pure water) and collected the excessive fluid from the drain pipe. What shall I say: 1.0l water/coolant with approximately 400ml Oil emulsion on top.

OK, something is wrong with the head. Looking through the oil filler I saw no foam in the visible camshaft area. The dipstick also showed no signs of water.  Now I need your advice. Is it possible to make a diagnose on these symptoms, whether just the head gasket is blown or the head is cracked or bent? Would there be another possiblity for oil to enter the coolant circuit?

Regards
Armin
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by scorpio_man on Aug 17th, 2010, 1:06am
hi there

sounds like you've got a cracked head.....

http://fordscorpio.multiply.com/photos/album/6/cylinder_head_16v


hth
Title: Re: Thermostat pipe defects (2.3)
Post by ADroste on Sep 25th, 2010, 9:23pm

on 08/17/10 at 01:06:19, scorpio_man wrote:
..
sounds like you've got a cracked head...

I would like to contribute final information. After reading several posts in different forums, I accepted the diagnosis "cracked head". Motor specialists warned me to fit a new head to a high mileage motor. So I looked for a new motor. I was lucky and found exact the same motor as mine, but with just 30k miles for 400,-€.
http://i51.tinypic.com/21ky1e8.jpg
Because I have no access to the required tools, I tasked a garage to do the exchange for me. 900€ incl. VAT :o

Since three days the beast is back on the road. Still very little signs of rust, smooth gear changes, working lambda probe and cat and with all the nice features of a fully equipped Ultima I hope I can further run it for some time.

Regards
Armin


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