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        General >> Problems >> Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
        
(Message started by: btl-norway on Jul 11th, 2010, 6:29pm)
Title: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by btl-norway on Jul 11th, 2010, 6:29pm
Hi

My Ford Scorpio 1995 got stolen, but the good news is that I got i back. I had a coolant leak into the radiator, and the car had no coolant. The thief drove about 30km (18.5 miles) without coolant. The damages I have found so far is:
-Watersensors green and black have melted
-4 Threads in heads to rockershaft? where dagaged and the bolts to the rockershafts? where ripped off. The other 4 where loose.
-the 4 bolts to headcover where loose.
-All headbolts M12 and M14 where loose.
-There are small cracks in all 4 heads between the inlet&outlet valve.
-The oil smell very strange.
I will try to make some pictures off the engine.
A whitness that lives where the car was found told me that he woke up because he thougt there where a helicopter or a motorcycle outside his house the night it happen.
I cannot see any damages into the cyliders and they all move up and down when I turn the engine.

I want to try to replace the headgasket and put the engine together, but I have some questions I want answered before I do that.

-Is there anything I should pay extra good attention to before I put my engine together?

-Can I reuse the headbolts? M12 and M14?

-Should I worry about the craks in the head? Replace the heads are worth more than the car I guess.

Here is pictures and the cracks is shown between the valves.
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6240.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6241.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6242.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6243.jpg

I can't see pictures. Direct link to the pictures is:
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6240.jpg -

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6241.jpg -

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6242.jpg -

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6243.jpg
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Matt on Jul 12th, 2010, 6:10pm
glad to hear you got the car back,
from the pics id say the heads are scrap, but being a VM engine it was fitted to a lot of cars, the earlier jeep Cherokees may be your best bet at finding replacements,

head gaskets are readily available on ebay

i would use new bolts, if you find a donor engine say from the jeep i would swap the heads, push rods and lifters, you could get away with the bolts from a donor. jeep engine should have the same sensors.

the strange smell is just cooked oil, i would drain it off and swap the filters, you may need to flush a few times if water has go into the oil (any milky white sludge??)
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Highlander on Jul 12th, 2010, 9:43pm
from memory the Vauxhall Frontera head gasket is a single unit rather than the 4 seperate Scorpio ones and it fits ;)
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by btl-norway on Jul 13th, 2010, 12:03am
Hi, there where no white cream in the oil (oil dipstic examination), maybe because there where no water left on the engine?

How can you see that the heads are scrap? Cause of the cracks or the brown colour? The first picture shows a weird oil pattern, caused by spilled oil at a dormatt that the head where stored at.

I have still heads from my old engine that suddenly sound very bad (A hard knocking sound). I don't have knowledge or experience to say if the heads are in good condition so I can them on the engine.

I have taken some pictures of them too.

Here they are:

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6244.jpg


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6245.jpg


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6246.jpg


http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6247.jpg



the overheated engines heads rear and the hard knocking sound engine heads in front
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6254.jpg

If I find time, I will clean the heads tomorrow, and take better pictures.

Is the lifters and pushrods better at Jeep Cherokee than the scorpio? bigger umberella? or are there no differense. (It have happened 2 times that the pushrods jump off the lifter at my old engine)
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Highlander on Jul 13th, 2010, 12:16am

on 07/13/10 at 00:03:35, btl-norway wrote:
How can you see that the heads are scrap?



on 07/11/10 at 18:29:18, btl-norway wrote:
There are small cracks in all 4 heads between the inlet&outlet valve.


A crack in any cylinder head  is bad news.

A crack in a cylinder head doesnt necessarily mean oil and water would mix, it can be a symptom but it doesnt always show up that way depending on where it appears.

in this case with cracks between the valves will probably link the two manifolds :

You will be losing compression, unburnt fuel down the exhaust, exhaust gases back into the inlet manifold and you possibly wont even have enough compression to start the engine.

the heads ARE scrap as Matt says
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Toriitom on Jul 13th, 2010, 12:48am

Your head is U/S and you will need a new one. AFAIA Transit engines are the same.

Don't use the old head bolts as they too are U/S. Head bolts are not too dear and are available on the bay.

While you are at it, you may as well replace the timing belt and adjuster as well as the water pump. It would be a shame, if you did not do these items, for your work to be in vain if the belt or water pump goes. The timing is very simple to set up; if you don't have the timing pins you can use drills.
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Highlander on Jul 13th, 2010, 1:00am

on 07/13/10 at 00:48:59, Toriitom wrote:
Your head is U/S and you will need a new one. AFAIA Transit engines are the same.

Don't use the old head bolts as they too are U/S. Head bolts are not too dear and are available on the bay.

While you are at it, you may as well replace the timing belt and adjuster as well as the water pump. It would be a shame, if you did not do these items, for your work to be in vain if the belt or water pump goes. The timing is very simple to set up; if you don't have the timing pins you can use drills.


Dont change the timing belt!.... you dont have one ;)

The serpentine belt on the VM Diesel is just a drive belt for ancilleries,  it has no effect on timing which is done by gears.

A broken belt, adjuster or water pump pulley will not damage the engine unless you keep driving, as it would with any engine.

Dont think theres a Transit that uses the VM engine with individual heads Toriitom, not that i've heard of??

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/tdichains.jpg
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by gozz on Jul 13th, 2010, 8:54am
Regarding the VM in a Tranny,I've run them in my business since they were invented,the originals used Perkins then their own York then the 2.5 di,now the new generation of Duratorque with chain driven timing,but I was never offered a VM.
      GOZZ.
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Toriitom on Jul 13th, 2010, 9:48am

on 07/13/10 at 01:00:30, Highlander wrote:
Dont change the timing belt!.... you dont have one ;)

The serpentine belt on the VM Diesel is just a drive belt for ancilleries,  it has no effect on timing which is done by gears.

A broken belt, adjuster or water pump pulley will not damage the engine unless you keep driving, as it would with any engine.

Dont think theres a Transit that uses the VM engine with individual heads Toriitom, not that i've heard of??


Sorry Highlander & Gozz, I was told by a Ford mechanic that they were the same engine. This is the same mechanic that MOT prep'd a car and sent it for test with broken front springs. I'll know to take whatever he says with a pinch of salt.

In that case I'll take back what I said about the timing belt and water pump. I would still recommend that the head bolts are changed, for all they cost.
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Highlander on Jul 13th, 2010, 9:56am
Dont you just love Ford mechanics :)

Anyone remember the one that told someone on the forum to find a 24v Scorpio engine for their S type Jag as it used the same engine?? :)
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Toriitom on Jul 13th, 2010, 10:38am
Whenever I discover something that I had not come across before, I like to look for the topic and read about it. Not that I want to be a know-all, more trying not to be ignorant about things.

When Highlander mentioned the VM engine, I had not come across this before (don't know how I missed it while tinkering about auto-mobiles for over 40 years). I looked it up on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_Motori and from that I read through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VM_Motori_engines and was surprised to see so many vehicles using the VM engines. I can't believe that I have never come across one before now.

Thank you for enlightening me.

Tom
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by btl-norway on Jul 13th, 2010, 10:44am
Well, I just found out that I had to write IMG with small letters, so pictures are now shown in my prev. posts.

I don't feel sure after the seious overheat about everything else in the engine is ok, and I have this engine before and know it is some work to do when taking in and out the engine. (actually I promissed my self to never change this engine again :p ) Do I need to worry about this? If eg. I ensamble the engine together and when it start it has eg. no oil pressure, runs bad etc, I have wasted money on headgasket, headbolts.
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Highlander on Jul 13th, 2010, 11:07am

on 07/13/10 at 10:38:44, Toriitom wrote:
Whenever I discover something that I had not come across before, I like to look for the topic and read about it. Not that I want to be a know-all, more trying not to be ignorant about things.

When Highlander mentioned the VM engine, I had not come across this before (don't know how I missed it while tinkering about auto-mobiles for over 40 years). I looked it up on Wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VM_Motori and from that I read through http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_VM_Motori_engines and was surprised to see so many vehicles using the VM engines. I can't believe that I have never come across one before now.

Thank you for enlightening me.

Tom


Theres a few of them out there :)

I believe it was originally designed hundreds of years ago when Simmo was a lad as a boat engine using a 5 cylinder version.

must be a good engine though ;)
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Mike H on Jul 13th, 2010, 3:19pm

on 07/11/10 at 18:29:18, btl-norway wrote:
A whitness that lives where the car was found told me that he woke up because he thougt there where a helicopter or a motorcycle outside his house the night it happen.


In other words he left where it wouldn't go any further.

The funny oil smell means it's well overheated so given that it was "run into the ground" I'd be concerned about bearings as well. (?)
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Matt on Jul 13th, 2010, 5:33pm
yes the VM's were fitted into loads of vehicles, they look virtually the same in all of them to, intakes may be slightly different and some of the brackets are different

the hard knock? how do you know its hard knocking, from the old engine?

the serious heat that went through the heads to crack them will more then likely have either softened the valve seats or cracked them to?

your old heads look in good condition, although it looks as if the head in pic 3 could do with the valves taken out and reseated with grinding paste (id would do it to all 4 of them) as it looks as if you have a bit of soot blowing back on the injector hole

as for further damage, take the sump off and check the crank, if all looks good, refit and refill the bottom end with clean oil and turn it over first by had, checking the cylinder bores for any scoring, spider cracking, or signs of serious heat (bluing of the metal), if all looks ok, crank it over on the starter and have a listen for any odd or grinding noises, again if ok id say it should be ok, its a strong lump

as for the push-rods etc, they are the same wither its a scorpio or not
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by btl-norway on Jul 14th, 2010, 12:02am
I have 2 engines. The overheated and the knocking engine. The knocking engine where running fine, until one day I started it, and it sounds very bad. Hard knocking sound. I changed the engine, and the car got stolen. I put the knocking engine on a tripod today, and took of the sump. There where sidewaysplay in crankshaft (the clutch to belt-wheel-way) in the crankshaft, when i turned the engine, and I also heard a "click". I think it came from the crank, but not sure. Hard to find out. I have not taken out the pistons yet. The crankshaftbearings where weird. Never seen that kind of crankshaftbearings before.

I also cleaned the heads from knocking engine today (the one that looks in good condition) paper and gasket-remover-tool. I found some small cracks in them too, but the engine where running fine until it starts knocking. It didn't consume any water or oil. I could take new pitcures, but I guess I should clean a litle better first, but I didn't found the redsprit/alkohol (don't know the english name).

No news about the overheated engine.

the cylinderbores can be checked without taking out the sump?

Is it safe to turn the engine on the starter without heads? I'm concernd about big oilspill.
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Highlander on Jul 14th, 2010, 9:23am

on 07/14/10 at 00:02:04, btl-norway wrote:
I also cleaned the heads from knocking engine today (the one that looks in good condition) paper and gasket-remover-tool. I found some small cracks in them too, but the engine where running fine until it starts knocking.


Don't use cracked heads, you'll be wasting your time.
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Matt on Jul 14th, 2010, 7:22pm
can you put a pic up of the new cracked head?

there will be a bit of oil spill but not much, a few seconds on the starter should tell you if the bottom end is shot
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by btl-norway on Jul 14th, 2010, 10:17pm
Yes, I will take new pictures tomorrow.
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Simmo on Jul 15th, 2010, 6:43am

on 07/14/10 at 22:17:38, btl-norway wrote:
Yes, I will take new pictures tomorrow.

If you post them please make sure they are only 640/480 pixels in size. This is a requirement on this site. The current ones are 1024/683 and should be reduced as well please. Thank you.
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Mike H on Jul 15th, 2010, 12:11pm

Quote:
There where sidewaysplay in crankshaft (the clutch to belt-wheel-way) in the crankshaft


By "sideways", do you mean moving it toward left or right sides of the crankcase? Not forward / back ("endfloat")



Quote:
The crankshaftbearings where weird. Never seen that kind of crankshaftbearings before.  

In what way, weird?
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by btl-norway on Jul 15th, 2010, 12:39pm
HEAD #1
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6265.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6261.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6257.jpg



HEAD #2
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6266.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6262.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6258.jpg




HEAD #3
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6267.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6263.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6259.jpg




HEAD #4
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6268.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6264.jpg

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y108/btl-norway/scorpio_engine_repair2010/IMG_6260.jpg



on 07/15/10 at 12:11:59, Mike H wrote:
By "sideways", do you mean moving it toward left or right sides of the crankcase? Not forward / back ("endfloat")

By sideways I mean not left/right. If I take a good grip in the beltwheel that drives the alternator, servo, ac en I do
waterpump. I can move it into the engine and out from the engine. Maybe 4mm? And I hear a knocking sound when I do this. I guess this is what happened to this engine, and why It started knocking.



on 07/15/10 at 12:11:59, Mike H wrote:
In what way, weird?

It locks like I have to take the crankshaft out through the engine (cluchside), and not straight up like I have done other engines I have dealed with.
I have not taken any pistons out of the engine jet. Neet to make space for it in the garage first.


on 07/15/10 at 06:43:17, Simmo wrote:
If you post them please make sure they are only 640/480 pixels in size. This is a requirement on this site. The current ones are 1024/683 and should be reduced as well please. Thank you.

Sorry, but I have resized all the pitures now :-)
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Mike H on Jul 15th, 2010, 12:54pm

Quote:
I can move it into the engine and out from the engine. Maybe 4mm? And I hear a knocking sound when I do this. I guess this is what happened to this engine, and why It started knocking


A-ha, that is "end float". Some end float is common in all engines and indeed is necessary to account for heat expansion. 4mm does seem a bit extreme though. Maybe there is a thrust washer that has worn down?

If it is "knocking", that traditionally suggests big end bearing loose.

Can you tell if any of the big ends rattle from side to side? That is pushing / pulling in the same direction that the piston moves.
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Matt on Jul 15th, 2010, 7:16pm
looking at your new pictures i would say those heads are ok, it appears to be a core plug fitted between the inlet and exit valves, with 'machine marks', it would be these plugs that have produced the cracked look on the overheated heads, perhaps they moved and deformed through the heat.

as your old engine was only knocking, as mike H says this would be a bottom end issue, so top end will be ok, personally i would fit these heads and run a simple compression check
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by btl-norway on Jul 15th, 2010, 11:25pm
That is good news.

I will come back with more info when I have worked more with the engines :-)
Title: Re: Engine repair 2.5td - overheat
Post by Simmo on Jul 16th, 2010, 7:47am
Thank you for sorting the picture size. :)


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