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        General >> Problems >> gearbox oil in water ?????
        
(Message started by: tiggerlit on Aug 18^th, 2010, 1:17am)

Title: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Aug 18^th, 2010, 1:17am

hi everyone
thanks for all the previous help you gave me xox
but here goes another one that even the garage is puzzled by.
theres automatic gearbox oil in the water system and the expansion tank, its like a coffee milkshake colour and semi thick. had a head test done and thats fine. first of all the garage said the radiator must have a crack as thats the only point they meet, so i got a rad which was in good nick, flushed the system out so that there was no more gunk in it, cleared all the gunk from exspansion tank and refilled. after doing about 10 miles the following day,and now we are backed to square one
again with loads of gunk, and now the tempature gauge wont work, and the fans wont come on. also the gearbox was a bit jumpy like lack of oil. so took it to the garage and they are basically scratching their heads as they havent got a clue.
we cant be without a car due to my health but we dont want to drive it incase it causes bigger probs.
so has anyone come across this problem before???
thanks for the help
also my smilies wont work on here, any ideas why???
becki

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by 5stud on Aug 18^th, 2010, 9:11am

sorrey but its 99% certain that you have the same problem ase member certain.the oil feed to the head burst.you may be able to test if its atf ore oil but to be 100%certain you have to take the head off.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Cosray on Aug 18^th, 2010, 9:49am

Hi all - I am surprised to learn there is a possibility of ATF mixing with coolant... now where could that happen?

I have experienced engineoil mixing with coolant of course and vice versa - but ATF? That's in the autobox, confined as it were?

What location in the car would when malfunctioning allow to have the two fluids mix?

Curious,
Ray

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by scorpio_man on Aug 18^th, 2010, 9:58am

on 08/18/10 at 09:49:26, Cosray wrote:

hi there

have a read of this page near the bottom....
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/leaks.htm

hth

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by gozz on Aug 18^th, 2010, 12:44pm

tiggerlit.
Did your repairer pressure test the radiator oil cooler ? If it is leaking I would expect coolant to be in the transmission because the cooling system pressure is much higher than that in the transmission oil cooler circuit.Is your auto fluid a normal colour and at the proper level when hot with the engine running ? If all is normal in the foregoing you have a cylinder head problem,and what you are seeing is an oily,rusty emulsion.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Aug 18^th, 2010, 1:49pm

hi thanks for all the replies.
its 100% not the head and engine oil. it is atf, we keep losing the transmission fluid so have to keep topping it up, but the condition of the oil is fine. i read the link, so now im confused on how its this way round and not the coolent into the atf. but we are going to check all the hoses etc like it said on the link page. there is no visible sign of atf leaking from the gearbox too, so its got to be going into the water somewhere. the rad was brand new unless it was my luck that it has a split or something in it. the oil also has a different smell.
maybe im the first person to have this problem with a scorpio lol.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Highlander on Aug 18^th, 2010, 1:54pm

Could you take a picture of the gearbox pipes going into the radiator and the cooler underneath?

just in case theres some sort of modification somewhere? ;D

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Aug 18^th, 2010, 2:02pm

hiya you did you get my email the other day????
thats a good thought, as the cat was different too, there was something else too that was done different but cant remember what it was.
but yeah ill take a pic and put it up on here. if i cant do it could i email you the pic and you put it up for me?? pretty please lol

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Highlander on Aug 18^th, 2010, 2:37pm

Yep will do, take few if you can,

i'm pretty intrigued by the cat thing, the 16v's use the same cat so I'd like to see the one you have on yours

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Cosray on Aug 18^th, 2010, 3:50pm

on 08/18/10 at 09:58:02, scorpio_man wrote:

hi there

have a read of this page near the bottom....
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/leaks.htm

hth

Scorpioman, thx for educating me.
I never realised that there was a possible crossover location in this radiator... depending on the respective pressures in autobox and coolant a haircrack might be mixing those fluids vice versa... so there is danger of coolant in the autobox as well!

1) So, does it not follow THAT is the culprit?

2) Would these head-scratching garage tecchies not know this?

3) BTW the car is not a 24v, is it? Same chance of problem though? Same rad?

Curious
Ray

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Highlander on Aug 18^th, 2010, 3:58pm

It SHOULD be Ray, however I dont think all is as it should be with this particular Scorpio, I suspect it has had some sort of modifications done to it...

The pictures may reveal all ;D

its a 2.3

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tompion on Aug 18^th, 2010, 9:11pm

It is possible your replacement rad is faulty. Did they test the old one to see if that did have a fault?
Does your coolant system pressurise? Presumably if the rad cap is faulty (not pressurising) as well as the rad fault the ATF could get into the coolant.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Aug 19^th, 2010, 12:21am

hi thanks for that no one never thought of that, and they didnt do a pressure test on the coolant either.
what do you mean by the rad cap? or do you mean the expansion cap? but it does make sence

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by gozz on Aug 19^th, 2010, 9:54am

tiggerlit.
The rad water/oil cooler is simply tested by removing the oil pipes from the rad and putting a pressure gauge in one orifice and an air supply in the other,apply about 10 psi and ascertain whether or not pressure is maintained.I am not suggesting YOU do it,the garage should have sufficient tackle to test it though.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tompion on Aug 19^th, 2010, 11:35am

Yes, the expansion cap.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Cosray on Aug 19^th, 2010, 6:26pm

Hey guys - if there exists this crossover leak in the rad - should there not be ATF in the coolant AND coolant in the ATF i.e. autobox as well?

Would the autobox not screw up when having coolant in the ATF?

Would it not be worth a check on the ATF composition?

Just a suggestion for what it is worth (thinking about my own dear Cossie..!)...

Ray

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 5^th, 2010, 2:23am

hi everyone back again with the same problem but not solved- heres the update-
radiaitor replaced
oil cooler replaced
expansion tank and cap replaced
flushed god knows how many times now
head tested no probs so head gasket not gone
100% atf is in the coolant system
but still having this problem
even ford confused
i have taken pics of the expansion tank with the crap in these were taken as we took the top off and it over flowed due to air lock.
so any ideas??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 5^th, 2010, 2:30am

highlander can you give me your email address plzzzzzz so that i can email you the pics as cant do it aarrrrgggg x
thanks

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by gozz on Sep 5^th, 2010, 7:24am

tiggerlit.
Highlander's email is on his profile,click on his user name.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tompion on Sep 5^th, 2010, 11:02am

Is the oil level still dropping on the autobox? I believe it can be really difficult shifting oil from the system especially the matrix. If the oil level is no longer dropping it might be worth bypassing the matrix by connecting the two matrix hoses directly together – you’re less likely to have an airlock with the matrix out of the system.

If you’re 100% sure it’s ATF then the following doesn’t matter.

These heads can suffer with a cracked oilway (especially if the engine has ever overheated), a compression test won’t show it & the headgasket doesn’t play a part.
It is also possible to have oil leaking via the head gasket to the waterways without affecting the compression.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by scorpio_man on Sep 5^th, 2010, 12:22pm

on 09/05/10 at 11:02:02, Tompion wrote:

If you’re 100% sure it’s ATF then the following doesn’t matter.

These heads can suffer with a cracked oilway (especially if the engine has ever overheated), a compression test won’t show it & the headgasket doesn’t play a part.
It is also possible to have oil leaking via the head gasket to the waterways without affecting the compression.

hi there

that's the issue i had with my old car. the crack was in the 'hole' for the head bolt.

hth

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Sep 5^th, 2010, 1:27pm

I think that's a good idea plumbing the cooler hoses together which will take the oil cooler out altogether, and trying it like that for a while. There's no way transmision oil can come anywhere near the coolant in that case. If there's still oil getting in, it must be other oil (?)

 

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 5^th, 2010, 1:34pm

now that is a very good idea ;)
my other half is just about to go up the road so first hes going to check engine oil then when he comes back hes going to check the atf level. then we are going to by pass the matrix and the oil cooler then see what happens. if someone can tell me how to put pics on then i can show you what the stuff looks like.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Sep 5^th, 2010, 1:43pm

You need to host the pictures on another web site like e.g. photobucket, then link to them with [img] URL tags

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by scorpio_man on Sep 5^th, 2010, 1:47pm

on 09/05/10 at 13:34:40, tiggerlit wrote:

hi there

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=admin;action=display;num=1268569404

hth

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Cosray on Sep 5^th, 2010, 1:50pm

Hi all -- what I do not understand is this --

if it is NOT the radiator crossover section leaking ATF to the coolant vice versa
- is there any other location wher ATF meets coolant in the car? I cannot think of any other. ATF is confined to the Autobox
So - would it not be vital to check
- if there is coolant in the Autobox?
  if the "oil" is engine-oil OR really ATF?
  or if it is oil from the powersteering? same stuff, no?

Curious
Ray

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Sep 5^th, 2010, 1:54pm

That is indeed the question! ;D

Or several....

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 5^th, 2010, 3:50pm

oh my god cosray have you just solved it????????????
it started just after the steering rack was done, so could it then be power steering fluid??????

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Cosray on Sep 5^th, 2010, 4:55pm

... twisted hoses perhaps?

;-))

Ray

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tompion on Sep 5^th, 2010, 6:58pm

There must be some very strange plumbing if the steering rack fluid is getting into the coolant.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Cosray on Sep 5^th, 2010, 7:10pm

on 09/05/10 at 15:50:22, tiggerlit wrote:

oh my god cosray have you just solved it????????????
it started just after the steering rack was done, so could it then be power steering fluid??????

Well, after all this head-scratching wouldn't it be very surprising if there were yet another solution to this stubborn problem?

Ray

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Highlander on Sep 6^th, 2010, 10:18am

on 09/05/10 at 19:10:23, Cosray wrote:

Well, after all this head-scratching wouldn't it be very surprising if there were yet another solution to this stubborn problem?

Ray

Its not power steering fluid unless it was Frank Spencer that fitted the new rack!! ;D

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Cosray on Sep 6^th, 2010, 3:01pm

... just spoke to Frank, he said: "Ooooh, I did it"

http://lh4.ggpht.com/_-3jJs8IT1gA/TIT1Dd6qgyI/AAAAAAACKB8/PnLk0191PiU/s144/dyn006_small150_226_260_jpeg

;-)

Ray

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 8^th, 2010, 12:32am

this is so not helping lol, its doing my bloody head in now. im having to put up with a moody grumpy man cos we have no car and its costing money that i could quite easily spend on better things you know what us girls are like lol.
anyway i will get some pics up and im going to try and do a video of the car running and to show the condition and colour of all the oil parts and then the expansion tank. but if anyone lives near gu33 and wouldnt mind coming to have a look that would be great. even the ford garage dont have a clue and they have seen it.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 8^th, 2010, 12:46am

http://i892.photobucket.com/albums/ac125/tiggerlit/scorpio%20problem/oddbits2005.jpg
http://i892.photobucket.com/albums/ac125/tiggerlit/scorpio%20problem/oddbits2008.jpg

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 8^th, 2010, 12:47am

now what have i done wrong???? pics wont show

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tompion on Sep 8^th, 2010, 3:27am

Pictures
Here (http://i892.photobucket.com/albums/ac125/tiggerlit/scorpio%20problem/oddbits2005.jpg) and Here (http://i892.photobucket.com/albums/ac125/tiggerlit/scorpio%20problem/oddbits2008.jpg)

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Jonnycab on Sep 8^th, 2010, 3:30am

I had this problem recently & it was because the upper case IMG needed to be changed to lower case img :)....not entirely sure why though ? .... ???

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tompion on Sep 8^th, 2010, 3:42am

Strange the uppercase changes the last part of the link from:
/oddbits2005.jpg
to
/odd%20bits2005.jpg

I didn't put the pictures up because they exceeded our sites size limit.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tompion on Sep 8^th, 2010, 9:48am

Why do they say it’s definitely ATF?
I put some engine oil & coolant in a jar and some ATF & coolant in another jar and shook them up. Apart from the ATF foam being slightly pink and the engine oil foam slightly green I couldn’t tell much difference.
I was using fresh oil & coolant. I would imagine there wouldn’t be much colour difference with used oils.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Cosray on Sep 8^th, 2010, 12:33pm

Good point Tompion, the proof of the pudding...
Never speculate when you can test.

But... what if it is ATF after all?

Where does it crossover?

As pressures ar not equal nor constant when it it crosses over it follows that should happen vice versa.

So is there coolant in the autobox or powersteering?

From the confinement of an autobox, the radiator crossover section now being eliminated?

Powersteering?

Puzzled,
Ray

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by scorpio_man on Sep 8^th, 2010, 1:01pm

hi there

having looked at the 2 photos, i'd said oil is getting pumped into the waterways. :(

it is hard to clear oil from the water system. one way is using caustic soda, but you need to VERY CAREFUL using it!

if you've flushed the system a good few times and it's still coming back, i'd say your head was cracked. i had the same issue. if caught early enough then it's a new/2nd hand head. if not, it will strip the cyclinder bore(s) and wreak your engine.

hth

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Snoopy on Sep 8^th, 2010, 1:45pm

The Power Steering and water do NOT in any circumstance come inrto contact it has to be either engine oil or Gearbox Fluid and I would suspect Engine oil as from what I read the radiator where contamination can occur has been eliminated..

Cracked Head or failed head gasket is IMHO the likely cause.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Highlander on Sep 8^th, 2010, 2:08pm

on 08/18/10 at 13:49:20, tiggerlit wrote:

we keep losing the transmission fluid so have to keep topping it up, but the condition of the oil is fine.

This is the part thats confusing me ???

Becky can we just double check you are actually looking at the right systems etc (it happens)

The autobox dipstick is shown on the left of this diagram just above the electrical connector on the brake fluid reservoir.
You are checking this and topping up the autobox oil through this?

Power steering reservoir is shown bottom centre

p.s. this is a 2.0 16v but very similar to the 2.3

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/skelly7.jpg

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Sep 11^th, 2010, 1:10pm

Quote:

we keep losing the transmission fluid so have to keep topping it up, but the condition of the oil is fine

I think this could be all just a coincidence. ATF level dropping could be a completely separate issue. By the way, this level should only be checked while it's hot and the engine is running, else it will always look too low, is that right guys?

Yeah Stuart there's NO WAY oil can get from the ATF filler/dipstick or the steering reservoir into the head unless you deliberately plumbed in a hose to do it ;D

I think I'm with Snoopy, looks like a leak in the block or head between waterjacket and an oil way. Oil and water mixed in an engine in that kind of way always looks like mud, or sometimes white-ish like whipped cream. In that state it's impossible to tell what type it was originally supposed to be and you can't go by the colour.

Oil pump pressure is considerably greater than cooling system pressure hence in such a leak oil goes mostly goes one way into the coolant. I'm just guessing of course ;D

As mentioned earlier cylinder compression will not be affected if the leak does not directly involve combustion chamber sealing, only water and oil channels. Has anybody looked at engine oil level while all this has been going on?

I think it's head off time to find out exactly what's going on

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 11^th, 2010, 9:37pm

right i have just taken pics of all the oil sections ie-
engine oil both parts
atf part
psf part
will put them on now.
you can see from the pics that all the oil sections and oil is perfect. we have had the head tested again and still no probs. the only section losing oil is the psf which as you say could be a different prob.
and we have checked the atf while hot and running.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 11^th, 2010, 10:02pm

http://s892.photobucket.com/home/tiggerlit/recentuploads?page=1

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tompion on Sep 11^th, 2010, 11:32pm

on 09/11/10 at 21:37:01, tiggerlit wrote:

we have had the head tested again and still no probs.

How did they test it?

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by scorpio_man on Sep 12^th, 2010, 8:23am

hi there

if the head is cracked like i fear it might be, it won't show up on a sniffer test. you need the head off and pressure tested ON THE OIL WAYS side, not just the water ways side.

hth

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 12^th, 2010, 8:34am

ok i can see what you are saying, so if it was a cracked head what would be the symptoms? as i said to my other half the other day that if it was the head would we have been able to do a 13 hour round trip and still drive it about 200 miles a week or there abouts? and still have the only symptom of oil in water and everything else perfect?
i might have a brain fart now so iam sorry if i am, but if you take the head off then you need to replace the head gasket etc cos of taking it off?

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Kenboy on Sep 12^th, 2010, 8:54am

Hi after looking at the photo's I would suggest that the initial problem stems from coolant loss due to cracked inlet manifold around the area of the thermostat housing resulting in head overheating and therefore causing it to crack, it may pay you to check out the said area as there appears to be water trace leakage there. Cracked inlet manifolds are a common problem on the 2.3 (Plastic), its highly unlikely to be any other oil ingress, should there appear to be no problem with the manifold so be it but my money is on a cracked Cylinder Head

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 12^th, 2010, 9:17am

thanks for that i will get him to check again etc im sure we replaced the inlet manifold with a transit 2.3 as someone on this forum said about it and it was half the cost, i will check later when i kick him out of bed lol.
the whole thing is doing our head in as the car runs perfect in all situations if you know what i mean lol.
is there anyone on this forum near petersfield gu33??? that wouldnt mind having a look would pay you fuel or we can come to you.
even ford dosent know what it is.

the other thing is i got a obd scanner not the one you put into a laptop but is a handheld one with a lcd screen that gives codes and it wont fit into the 16 pin socket, its slightly different shape, do they not fit the scorpio????
last thing why do i have a red flag on the headline of my topic?
thank you

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Simmo on Sep 12^th, 2010, 10:54am

The red flag symbol means it is a Hot Topic. See the symbols at the bottom of the main problems page ;). Some hand held scanners will work and I put up a link earlier today. Here (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Advice;action=display;num=1284144488). :)

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by scorpio_man on Sep 12^th, 2010, 12:32pm

hi there

when my head cracked, i drove up from from leeds (over 200 miles), but it was pressurising all the water pipes.

that's another thing you can check. if the rubber pipes are getting hard, then that's a bad sign.

remember the longer oil is mixed in the waterways, the more it will destroy the rubber pipes, making them more likely to burst.

hth

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tompion on Sep 12^th, 2010, 12:39pm

on 09/12/10 at 08:34:58, tiggerlit wrote:

ok i can see what you are saying, so if it was a cracked head what would be the symptoms………….. if you take the head off then you need to replace the head gasket etc cos of taking it off?

Broadly speaking a cracked oilway gives the symptoms you have (assuming it’s engine oil in the coolant). A hairline crack could result in a very small amount of oil getting into the coolant - doesn’t take a lot of oil to make a mess. In which case the oil pressure would remain high enough not to damage the engine, so yes you may well be able to drive it unless/until the oily mess blocks the Rad etc & it overheats.

Yes, you’d need a new head gasket & cat gasket & probably some others, you’re also supposed to use new headbolts.

Scorpio_man has picture of the area to examine here (not sure if you need to be a member to see it):
http://fordscorpio.multiply.com/photos/album/6/cylinder_head_16v#photo=1

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Sep 12^th, 2010, 3:08pm

According to the photos the only part that looks wrong is oil in the water. There may be a small amount of water getting into the engine oil, but due to typical operating temperature what little there may be will tend to be "boiled out".

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Sep 12^th, 2010, 3:11pm

on 09/12/10 at 12:39:51, Tompion wrote:

Scorpio_man has picture of the area to examine here (not sure if you need to be a member to see it):
http://fordscorpio.multiply.com/photos/album/6/cylinder_head_16v#photo=1

If you're very lucky might just be the head gasket leaking. Incidentally I'm surprised the garage didn't think of this possibility in the first place

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 13^th, 2010, 1:24am

thanks to everyone who keeps replying and helping maybe when we get to the bottom of this that if one day someone else has a siimular problem when can help them straight away.
my other half is going to strip the side of the engine off tomorrow manifold side to see what is going on there.
we dont really want to just take the head off at the moment cos so far the garages have cost us money when we didnt need to ie rads.
can anyone give me a link to a obd scanner that i can use on my laptop from ebay just so that i dont get the wrong one as theres so many on there but the connecter isnt the same, dont mind paying up to about £80, or if someone on here has one that they want to sell.

on a completly different subject, i was thinking that this forum can only run with donations, so why dont we set it up as a club too so that you can become a member, we could find a company that could do a deal on say car stickers and you would get one when you become a member, and also have a section on this forum for members only. i used to belong to the mondeo club and i think it was about £10 a year, just a idea ;)

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tompion on Sep 14^th, 2010, 3:13am

I don’t know of a suitable scanner that links to a laptop for sale on ebay. Most people use one from here (I assume you want it for some other reason, it won’t help with this problem):
http://www.obd-2.com/

To be honest I can’t imagine you’ll see anything of importance by stripping down either manifold side.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tompion on Sep 14^th, 2010, 3:29am

I’ve just read your post on another thread with regard the problem being due to the inlet manifold. I think perhaps that’s a slight misunderstanding. If you fitted a brand new one of the Transit ones (now no longer available cheaply) there’s no reason for it to have failed already. I couldn’t see any obvious sign of failure in your pictures the signs of coolant on the stat housing are just as likely to be splashes from all the flushing etc.
It is however highly likely the problem started when the original manifold failed.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Jonnycab on Sep 15^th, 2010, 1:21am

I agree with Tompion ;)....hardly likely to be the new Transit mainifold. I bought 2 of these (one for me & one for a mate) at the same time when they were going cheap on Ebay (£50 each, if I remember right).

Both manifolds were fitted to Scorp taxis & neither have given any trouble as yet....& probably aren't likely to for a long time, as they were brand new 2.3 Scorp manifolds :)

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 15^th, 2010, 2:34am

i think we are just grabbing at allsorts now, even thinking about getting another one and using it as spares, i have put a link under for sale section to see what people think of it. as i said in the other section parts for these cars are getting dear now.
as for the obd scanner i know it wouldnt solve this problem but i have one now and it wont slot into the 16 pin hole, and they can come in handy.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tompion on Sep 15^th, 2010, 9:53am

on 09/15/10 at 02:34:06, tiggerlit wrote:

i think we are just grabbing at allsorts now, .............

Not sure what you mean, the very first post by 5stud said it all. We can only go by you tell us.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Sep 16^th, 2010, 2:50pm

Well we've been all around the houses hoping it's something relatively simple but I agree like 5stud said someone needs to take the head off and have a look. Might be really simple like just a new gasket. If it is a problem with the existing gasket should be immediately obvious.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Simmo on Sep 17^th, 2010, 7:04am

If you still want to use your lap-top look in 'Parts for Sale'. :) Here (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=admin3;action=display;num=1284672538)

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Sep 17^th, 2010, 12:12pm

Don't think it will show any codes except maybe coolant level if it's got that. Seems engine works fine, compression OK and everything, so as far as PCM is concerned most likely everything is working properly that should be.

Is it possible to tell if engine oil level has dropped?

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Highlander on Sep 17^th, 2010, 1:19pm

on 09/17/10 at 12:12:34, Mike H wrote:

Is it possible to tell if engine oil level has dropped?

Dipstick ;D

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tompion on Sep 17^th, 2010, 1:25pm

;D

tiggerlit has already confirmed the lead wasn't required for this problem ;)

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Sep 17^th, 2010, 1:31pm

on 09/17/10 at 13:19:34, Highlander wrote:

Dipstick ;D

http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/ooh-2.jpg

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 18^th, 2010, 1:34am

on 09/15/10 at 09:53:05, Tompion wrote:

Not sure what you mean, the very first post by 5stud said it all. We can only go by you tell us.

oh no wasnt being a**ing ;)
what we cant work out is the car power is there all the oil sections are perfect not losing coolant just oil getting into the coolant. but the thing i will say now is that the gearbox is playing up going into drive, but that might be another prob as i did send my otherhalf down a bumpy lane to say the least so he thinks he might of hit something, but the oil in the box is fine and has not droped.
thing is the scorpio ultima is such a nice car and wouldnt have any other, what we are thinking of doing is as we have already spent so much on it (as were looking at getting another one and using this as spare parts) is to maybe take it to ford and leaving them with it and get them to look at it, surely it shouldnt cost more then about £100 to look at it, then depending what they find fix it ourselfs?

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 18^th, 2010, 1:35am

also i want a obd for future use we do have one but it wont fit even though its a 16 pin?

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Jonnycab on Sep 18^th, 2010, 2:38am

Don't take it to Ford, they will charge the earth & probably won't be able to tell you anymore than has already been advised on here. Take it too a good local mechanic, they'll be alot cheaper & probably more informed on this kind of problem :)

But as was mentioned before, if the head gasket is fine then it looks like it could well be a crack between the engine coolant outlet to manifold & an oilway in the head :(

The possible reason why oil is in the coolant but not coolant in the oil is because engine oil pressure tends to be higher than cooling system pressure, so it's more likely that oil will be forced into the cooling system rather than coolant forced into the engine......although, with the engine off & cooled down, I thought you would then maybe get a bit of coolant seeping into the oil :-/

Sorry if I've gone over old ground & repeated anything that was already said.......good luck :)

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 18^th, 2010, 2:53am

hi jonnycab
thanks for that will check all that in the morning, im starting to understand it now as head a bit clearer from coming away from this for a couple of days and also that you have put it in baby words lol.

can i ask one thing to everyone?

we have been told its atf by 2 garages now, what makes them so sure it is?
is there a certian smell with engine oil and atf oil?
is there a colour difference?
we cant work out what it is as there dosent seem to be any loss with any oils but we did have a loss with psf at the begining but that has now stopped as we put sealant stuff in it now.
so all oil sections now not dropping.
so will look again in the morning at what you have said.
thanks again

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Jonnycab on Sep 18^th, 2010, 2:59am

Baby words ?....that was quite technical for me ;D

To answer a couple of questions though...

ATF is red, engine oil isn't ;)

Engine oil doesn't really have much of a smell, but ATF does. ATF has the same smell as power steering fluid, as it is the same stuff...the difference being that the ATF is dexron III & the PS fluid is dexron II.

When mixed with coolant I couldn't honestly say what either would smell like, but from looking at the pics you have of that 'yogurt' that is coming out of the coolant tank, then I'd say that it is most likely a mix of coolant & not too dirty engine oil :-/

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tompion on Sep 18^th, 2010, 5:50pm

With the experiment I did mixing fresh coolant & fresh ATF and shaking it in a jar the foam was definitely pink. What’s more if I diluted it with a lot of water the red oil separated out and floated on top of the foam.
Your ATF on the dipstick looked red so you might expect the same.
You could try doing the same but mixing ATF from your transmission with coolant.
Can’t help with regard the smell as to me it smelled much like old coolant hoses.

Putting aside the fact that coolant normally leaks to the transmission rather than what you have, did you connect the transmission hoses together to bypass the radiator?
There’s no other place for ATF to get in. It would also prove the integrity of the radiator since if it was leaking internally coolant would come out of the now vacant holes.

Have you drained any oil from the engine sump?
It might be worth parking so the drain plug is the lowest point & draining some out to look for coolant.
I’m just concerned about the damage you may be doing if coolant has got into the engine.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Sep 18^th, 2010, 9:19pm

Yes and if so, water should be at the bottom of the container. I suspect though engine oil temperature would cause it to evaporate, but only car is driven for a reasonable time so it's hot enough.

on 09/18/10 at 02:38:52, Jonnycab wrote:

^ what he said. ;D

Yes I agree it's worth rescuing, as AFAIK there's nothing wrong with it otherwise.

Dunno why 2 garages should be sure it's ATF unless they've come across that before, on the basis that the radiator and oil cooler are one unit, in other words probably quite common (to them) for corrosion to create a leak between the two. Just guessing mind you.

"the gearbox is playing up going into drive"

In what way?

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Jonnycab on Sep 19^th, 2010, 1:41am

Can't see why there would be ATF in the coolant :-/.....Even if the rad had sprung a leak between the ATF cooling part of the rad & main rad, the ATF is under much less pressure than the cooling system, so it's hardly gonna get forced into the coolant. It's more likely that coolant would be forced into the ATF if the rad was faulty.

That yogurt/mayo coming out of your expansion tank, is in my opinion & most others who have advised so far.....engine oil in the coolant, caused by a split between a waterway & oilway.....most likely caused by a loss of coolant, leading to a severe overheating incident at some point in the past :(

How long have you had the car ?

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 19^th, 2010, 10:48pm

just spent the evening going through everything the car had had done before we had it as it has full service history etc, and just found out that the oil cooler system was replaced 4 and a half years ago by ford so should it of broke down and needing replacing :o?

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 19^th, 2010, 10:50pm

we have had the car 2 years now and before we had it it was serviced and looked after perfectly no expence missed, we still service it but ourselfs as we always look at our cars as being the last one we will own if you know what i mean, but going through the paperwork im :o as to how much has been done on it

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Cosray on Sep 20^th, 2010, 11:19pm

... I must confess I never believed in Snake Oil or the “mechanic-in-a-bottle” but once you get to this bizarre situation why not throw in a few £££ on these miraculous products?

They seem to work for other people so give it a chance. I would by now. Can't be all lies.

http://www.barsproducts.com/bars_testimonials.htm#1100

Ray

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 21^st, 2010, 6:30pm

thanks for that what else have we got to lose maybe ill get one for each type lol, got to admit we were starting to think that way, my other half has just poped into ford for a laugh and ask how much prices werent bad.
a complete look including computer job was £75 + vat, but he said whats wrong with it then so told him, so he turned round and said its the ps fluid ???
so wont be going there so as you say snake oil it is

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 23^rd, 2010, 9:03pm

anyone know where we can get that stuff as i think its america.
took the manifold off and found some of the gunk in it so wondering if its coming from the back somewhere, and cant find any crack?

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Cosray on Sep 23^rd, 2010, 10:22pm

Google is your friend:

http://bit.ly/9yWYaW

HTH
Ray

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 23^rd, 2010, 11:07pm

thanks for that ray
started looking around and then i noticed some wasnt english ???, just noticed you not from the uk lol im such a plonker sometimes lol
thanks again

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Jonnycab on Sep 24^th, 2010, 3:57am

on 09/23/10 at 21:03:18, tiggerlit wrote:

took the manifold off and found some of the gunk in it so wondering if its coming from the back somewhere, and cant find any crack?

I take it you found the gunk in the front part of the manifold (t-stat housing) & not the separate main part of the manifold that houses the injectors ? :-/

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 25^th, 2010, 4:08pm

hi yeah it was in the first part, is that better then having it in the second part?
right have now found water in the gearbox, how do we drain it as if you have to raise the car to get the bolts undone but doing that the water would run back wouldnt it?
so to make sure we get all the water out whats the best way?, if someone is online now would be grateful if some could get back to me asap as want to start it today.
THANK YOU TO EVERYONE THAT HAS HELPED SO FAR XXXXXXX

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by gozz on Sep 25^th, 2010, 7:48pm

If water is in the transmission it will have permeated the system,therefore it won't matter what angle the pan is at when you remove it,any damage will already be done.Strictly speaking the transmission needs rebuilding,but you could try removing and cleaning out the pan,then you will need to flush the box out by removing a cooler pipe and running the engine allowing fluid to run out into a receptacle,then topping up and repeat the process until you are happy that as much water as possible has been removed.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Sep 26^th, 2010, 1:48pm

Bizarre, was that originally caused by faulty radiator after all?

If you can imagine engine oil pressure putting stress on the cooling system then that is pushed through into the transmission oil cooler section

It kind of makes sense after a fashion and hence all the subsequent confusion as to what oil it is and where it's coming from

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Sep 26^th, 2010, 2:13pm

so what you are saying is the rad was fine?
or the rad had gone so the oil pressure was higher then the water pressure?
also which rad? as the whole oil cooler system was replaced 4 years ago
but to what some people say and i agree is that atf is red so surely you would of had pink milkshake and not coffee milkshake in the expansion tank? that confuses me still

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by gozz on Sep 26^th, 2010, 7:14pm

He refers to the engine coolant radiator through which,on the nearside, from top to bottom,runs a tube through which the ATF runs.The other little secondary cooling radiator below the main radiator is connected in series with the aforementioned as extra cooling for the transmission,no engine coolant connections are made to that secondary cooler.As previously said,the only way coolant and ATF can mix is via the heat exchanger tube in the engine rad should that tube be perforated,which is rare,and to have it happen twice in different rads is even rarer.You could remove the bottom oil cooler pipe on the main radiator,then leave a container under the rad overnight,best to remove the water header tank filler cap so that any negative pressure is released from the cooling system,if the heat exchanger is perforated at least a few drops of water should drip out.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Oct 7^th, 2010, 9:49pm

hi everyone sorry havent been on here for a while, right just to give you a update.
oil was all drained and there was no water at all so new filter and oil put in, but still having probs with gearbox, it is alot better but the problem is the following-
when putting it in drive to start moving it cant find it so have to put it in first to get moving once moving its perfect finds all gears etc. if you stop turn engine off and start again but its warm now it still does it. the fluid level is fine etc. it goes into reverse fine.
theres no high revs or anything or no thumping.
any ideas cheers

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Oct 9^th, 2010, 3:57pm

Gear lever position sensor? aka "PRNGL switch"

Not actually a switch, but a potentiometer, can break / wear out / get attacked by crud.

Without it ECU's got no idea which gear you want. Or even that you want one at all, which sounds like what it's doing for 'D'

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Oct 9^th, 2010, 4:41pm

thanks for that mike just read abit about it sounds about right. do you know where we can get one from as just googled the different names and nothing has come back and also looked on ebay but nothing. whats the price range on it?
i know i dont want much do i lol

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Oct 9^th, 2010, 5:06pm

You're not alone, been a bit of a spate of it lately!

See here:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1286281750;start=1#1

Can get one from a Ford outlet apparently, but note marking position of original before taking it off to put new one on.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Oct 9^th, 2010, 5:11pm

So how are we doing re the oil in coolant issue?

And was I right the gearbox problem is "coincidental" ?

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Oct 9^th, 2010, 5:23pm

the first one still a mystery have now k sealed it. but need to check it. and the second i think you have hit it on the nail ;). it would make sence as i sent my other half out to get something down this lovely pot hole lane with lovely swimming pools and it started from there. but just dont tell him its my fault lol

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Oct 9^th, 2010, 5:49pm

Yep who was it deliberately went through a car wash to prove it's aggravated by water from underneath?

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Oct 9^th, 2010, 6:29pm

am i right its something like this?
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Automatic-transmission-sensor-Mondeo-cougar-/400160373285?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item5d2b6aba25

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by gozz on Oct 9^th, 2010, 8:03pm

See posts below,'autobox problems O/D light flashing'.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Oct 22^nd, 2010, 10:43am

thats is i have seriously now had enough BLOODY GARAGE.
guess what the head gasket has gone, after spending all that money, on rads and rads they now say the head has gone. what i cant understand is that the oil level never dropped untill 2 days ago and lost a few litres. if it was the head right at the begining, could the oil only have been seeping a tiny winy bit that you wouldnt notice and then over time its got worse which is why we suddenly had the massive loss of oil.
anyway they have said that if we get the parts they will do the head gasket for £450 which includes it being skimmed. how bad is it to do the head gasket yourself ie cos of the bomb. we have done one on the dohc sierria. or is it worth paying them to do it? any advice yet again would be very grateful
thank you :-*

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Oct 22^nd, 2010, 10:47am

oh we replaced the gear sensor thing and it was perfect for a while now have no reversing light and keeps playing up and only goes into gear when it wants to, would that be part of the head gasket going?

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by 5stud on Oct 22^nd, 2010, 12:12pm

on 08/18/10 at 09:11:08, 5stud wrote:

post no 101 when the head is off its still 99% that the oil fead is burst.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Oct 22^nd, 2010, 1:45pm

on 10/22/10 at 12:12:06, 5stud wrote:

no 101 when the head is off its still 99% that the oil fead is burst.

??? what do you mean

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Simmo on Oct 22^nd, 2010, 5:00pm

I think he means you will be sure when you've got the head head off but in the meantime he's 99% sure its the oil feed which has burst. ???

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Oct 22^nd, 2010, 9:25pm

thank you :)

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Oct 27^th, 2010, 1:04pm

on 10/22/10 at 10:47:43, tiggerlit wrote:

No still sounds like gear position sensor still not right. E.g. it's got a reverse light switch as well

Was the replacement actually new? I mean "new" new ;D

If two position sensors are doing the same thing may indicate bad wiring connecting to it?

Am I right a head should only need skimming if it's been badly overheated? I.e. a cooling problem

I think your particular problem is you've got two or more separate issues going on simultaneously

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Oct 27^th, 2010, 1:24pm

hi yeah it was new from ford well i hope so for the price we paid :'(
we have just had the head come off and guess what the head is cracked in 3 places. does anyone have a head they want to sell or would a 2 litre head fit a 2.3 ford says the engines are completey different but thought i would double check.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Oct 27^th, 2010, 1:40pm

on 10/27/10 at 13:24:04, tiggerlit wrote:

we have just had the head come off and guess what the head is cracked in 3 places.

Ahhh!! It's all starting to make sense ;D

I believe tis possible to fit a 2 L head, but I'm not an expert but someone else will be along who is

The gearbox selector issue needs someone with electrical testing gear to check out the connections, for example it produces different values of resistance to determine the lever position

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Bikerdon on Oct 27^th, 2010, 2:12pm

From what I've been told, the 2.0 litre head fits straight on, I also think using the 2.0 litre cams will release a bit more oomph from your engine, almost certain I read that on here somewhere but I cant find the post. I'm sure someone else will be along to either confirm this or prove me wrong, they are a very clever bunch on here and have helped me out a few times before.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by 5stud on Oct 27^th, 2010, 9:12pm

on 08/18/10 at 09:11:08, 5stud wrote:

now its 100%
yes the 2.o l fits you have to use the 2.3 head gasket it hase biger bores

dont forget you have to use a new timig chain tensioner

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Oct 27^th, 2010, 9:29pm

theres a car on ebay buy it now price and its a 2litre m reg estate car, we are thinking of buying it for spares like for the cylinder head and the steering rack as thats now leaking badly. so which head has bigger bores the 2.3 or the 2.0 the car is below-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1995-FORD-SCORPIO-ESTATE-SPARES-REPAIR-BANGER-RACING-/290492267322?pt=Automobiles_UK&hash=item43a2b03b3a

but im having a disagreement with my other half as ford told him no way are they the same but i think ive read somewhere too that they are the same, and he says that he dosent want to spend £150 on a car thats not going to be any good. so pretty please can someone confirm to me 100% if im right or wrong otherwise ill be in the dog house for the rest of my life lol
thank you all so much

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by 5stud on Oct 28^th, 2010, 12:22am

buy it NOW put the compleat moter in including the inlet manifold-airbox .wireing loom.its just 10 hp down on the 2.3 .if you just use the head its bigest part of £200 in parts.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Mike H on Oct 29^th, 2010, 10:19am

Looking at the MOT failure list not serious problems!

Good little motor is the 2L, I assume this is the 16V (?)

If nuthin' wrong with it like 5stud says do a complete swap

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by 5stud on Nov 19^th, 2010, 10:36am

hase this a happy ending or not.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by ro284 on Nov 27^th, 2010, 2:59pm

As above, waiting for a happy ending also, my 2-3 has the same problem, off the road now as it got to the stage where the oil destroyed a heater hose close to the stat! however mine was diagnosed immediately on this club as being the cracked oil way in the head problem, hope all has worked out,
Bob

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Nov 27^th, 2010, 9:24pm

hi everyone.
well what can i say it went to the garage 3 weeks ago and the head had cracked in 3 places, so found someone with a head up north through a website called 1st choice. got the head and that was cracked too the bloke was ar**y had to put a complaint in to get our money back. have now found another head just waiting for it to turn up so fingers cross that ones ok.
all i can say its been one big headache but hopefully when all done should then be good as new.
one other thing though, might be useful to know is that if you ever buy anything wether its new or second hand if the product you buy is faulty and cos of it being faulty causes more damage then under the sales act of 1979 the seller has to pay for all costs, including any damages it has caused.

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tonyboy on Nov 27^th, 2010, 9:40pm

Here (http://direct.johnantell.co.uk/SOGA1979x.htm)

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Nov 27^th, 2010, 10:09pm

:-* ;)

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by ro284 on Nov 27^th, 2010, 10:34pm

cricky thats usefull to know,thanks for posting that, good luck tiggerlit, i'm sure it will be worth it in the end, hope it won't be long now before your driving her again

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by Tekno on Nov 28^th, 2010, 1:07am

on 10/27/10 at 21:12:26, 5stud wrote:

now its 100%
yes the 2.o l fits you have to use the 2.3 head gasket it hase biger bores

dont forget you have to use a new timig chain tensioner

head gaskets are same in 2.0 16v and 2.3 (despite different bore)

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by 5stud on Nov 28^th, 2010, 9:09am

on 11/28/10 at 01:07:49, Tekno wrote:

head gaskets are same in 2.0 16v and 2.3 (despite different bore)

no they are NOT THE SAME .the 2.3 gasket hase larger holes-bores and are thiner between the bores

Title: Re: gearbox oil in water ?????
Post by tiggerlit on Nov 28^th, 2010, 8:07pm

maybe someone could start a new section for scorpio owners that if someone was looking for a certin car part then to list other models that would fit the same, as ive noticed ringing around scrap yards up and down the country theres not many at all.
as if it wasnt for this website i would of spent a fortune on the manafold last year for the car when someone said the transit was the same. ;)