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        General >> Problems >> Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
        
(Message started by: gameboy on Aug 18th, 2010, 8:30pm)
Title: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by gameboy on Aug 18th, 2010, 8:30pm
Hi every body not been on here for a while   suddenly have electrical problem key in and dash lights up as normal but no start, can jump start straight onto starter motor and engine will start and run normaly, take key out and dash is still lit up, have changed driver side fuse box made no diference, screen heater relay on all the time which is draining my battery with in 2 days
please can any body help

Regards

Dave
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by solarpanel on Aug 18th, 2010, 8:45pm
what year your car
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by gameboy on Aug 18th, 2010, 9:01pm
R reg 1997
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Cosray on Aug 18th, 2010, 10:54pm
Hi Gameboy, welcome to the bad engine compartment  loom club. Here's my experience of 2009:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1235484612;start=0#0

It looks like it is the engine compartment loom section between firewll and front of the engine compartment playing up.

It comes and goes; maddening. It is a combination og age, bad loom isolation, heat off the exhaust shield and moist inducing electrical gremlins.

Mind you: your loom's wiring's 13 years old. Though after 1996 the isolation material was improved still odd leak currents will influence Scorpio's circuits and functioning, making lights flicker, fans go on and off, drain your vattery and sound your alarm.

Have a look at these pics if they look familiar:

http://picasaweb.google.nl/lh/sredir?uname=babpic123&target=ALBUM&id=5447060285432942433&authkey=Gv1sRgCNmu4LaW36q0hAE&invite=CKqjj7QH&feat=email&mode=SLIDESHOW

Only way of curing these symptoms is replacing this loom's section wire by wire or finding a complete, good used one (I was lucky to find one in Germany).

There was an RHD loom on offer on eBay the other day; see recent post: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1280820811

HTH
Ray
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Highlander on Aug 19th, 2010, 9:52am
Dont replace the loom yet Dave! ;)

can you start it in neutral?

I'd say its the PASSENGER side fusebox at fault, (Ignition lights and heated screen work off this fusebox) check the bottom of it for water ingress
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by gozz on Aug 19th, 2010, 9:59am
Dave.
Could it be simply a shot ignition switch ? just a thought !
                                        GOZZ.
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by gameboy on Aug 19th, 2010, 2:59pm
Hi everybody thanks for all the great  info have checked the fuse box on near side and found to be swimming in water which ties up with a massive rain storm we had a few weeks ago, pos could be looking for another box if this one dosnt come back to life.

Regards

Dave
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Highlander on Aug 19th, 2010, 3:31pm
passenger side one can recover from water ingress Dave, it might be ok once it dries out.

Do you have a battery cover fitted?
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Cosray on Aug 19th, 2010, 6:20pm

on 08/19/10 at 14:59:34, gameboy wrote:
Hi everybody thanks for all the great  info have checked the fuse box on near side and found to be swimming in water which ties up with a massive rain storm we had a few weeks ago, pos could be looking for another box if this one dosnt come back to life.

Regards

Dave



Good heavens...

... a submersed Scorpio fusebox... here comes trouble

Ray
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Highlander on Aug 19th, 2010, 7:15pm
The passenger side one doesnt suffer as badly as the drivers side one Ray as the connectors and the actual fusebox are suspended above the water.

The drivers side however is different as the water sits in the circuit boards and works its way in.

Hopefully it will dry out ok
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Cosray on Aug 21st, 2010, 9:34am
Highlander, on an RHD Scorpio is the driver's side junctionbox the one with the big multiplug (that needs to be seated properly)?

Where does the battery sit on an RHD, left or right?

Curious,
Ray
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Simmo on Aug 21st, 2010, 12:23pm
The dirvers side fusebox IS the one with the large multi-plug and the battery on a RHD is on the passenger,nearside.
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Cosray on Aug 21st, 2010, 12:42pm

on 08/21/10 at 12:23:24, Simmo wrote:
The dirvers side fusebox IS the one with the large multi-plug and the battery on a RHD is on the passenger,nearside.



Aha - so completely mirrored from an LHD then, see pic:

http://picasaweb.google.nl/lh/photo/BJczLBD-EXaaVr9EuaOcFQtMlZg_apewKonacucB4kk?feat=directlink

Thx
Ray
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by gameboy on Aug 24th, 2010, 11:34am
Hi every body again thanks for the info have managed to get back most function except I think the immobiliser may be a problem have two lives to start motor relay section nothing to earth any body help car been off road for ever getting twitchy  ;D

Regards

Dave
Regards

Dave
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by gameboy on Aug 24th, 2010, 12:46pm
Hi back again the car is in a garage they are having a problem with the PAT system which something to do with the keys system    would like my car back asap any body help thanks.

Regards

Dave
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Cosray on Aug 24th, 2010, 5:20pm
Dave, it looks like you are having the electrical gremlins to visit you.

Most Cossies now - yes, I was a victim too - suffer from infamous engine compartment loom trouble: brittle isolation of the wires and strands, touching and cross-infecting each other, disturbing, resetting, malfunctioning components. Heat, moist all work against you.

All Cossies are now over 12 years old... Sometimes even shorting battery Plus against other wires and making them go up in smoke... happened to me.

What also happened in my case is a typical, less known EEC-V habit.

When you disconnect any of the engine loom compartment wires/connectors, running to and fro the  the EEC-V * while the battery is connected * the EEC-V will "freeze", or "hang-up" for about 24 hours.

You might have even discovered this faulty wire, repaired it and still no ignition joy.

This is because the EEC-V is permanently connected through the battery PLus over the 6 injectors' positive side. In other words there is always 12V on the sensitive EEC-V ports.

When you start fiddling with wires and connectors, a static charge builds up in the EEC-V, which takes about 24 hours to leak away. Starting fine the next day! Maddening.

Golden rule: when working on the engine compartment loom and the engine "fuel cut off" loom * always, always * disconnect the negative battery pole. For instance when you disconnect the EDIS or coilpack, or take off the ABS connector etc.

Once done, reconnect. Otherwise you will face a 24 hr hang-up of the EEC-V which bejaves like an upset PATS: immobilised. Discovered this the hard way...

Please Check with your garage whether they did any of these fixes with connected battery - most do.

HTH
Ray
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by gameboy on Aug 24th, 2010, 8:45pm
Hi Ray thanks for the comprehensive information this sounds like the problem I have will relay your finding to the garage  and  they can go from there.

Regards

Dave
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Nunnspoet on Aug 25th, 2010, 9:40am
:).  Reallly, really great information Ray.

Thank you.

Mike
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Highlander on Aug 25th, 2010, 3:08pm
I'm not convinced the wiring is at fault here.

Have you actually seen any signs of wiring problems Dave?

As far as i'm aware we have had a wet passenger side fusebox?

What are the actual problems now Dave?
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by gameboy on Aug 25th, 2010, 10:46pm
Hi the garage has dismantled the pat unit found to be burnt out, they seem to have by passed the engine start section,  My question is  if I replace the pat/immobiliser  do I have to change key and  lock as well all matched  or immobiliser only.

Regards


Dave
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Cosray on Aug 26th, 2010, 8:08am
Highlander, out of curiosity - since gameboy's problem seems multi-facetted -  I understand that the later Cossie variants have the PATS function integrated in the EEC-V, hence a different loom and pinout.

That would imply NOT having a PATS module on a 1997.

If it IS a separate unit, where would it sit?

If built in into the EEC-V as a PATS functionality, how come a garage would find a burnt-out module?

Are they perhaps referring to the start inhibitor relay?
That would correlate with the submersed fusbox, would it not?

Curious,
Ray
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by gozz on Aug 26th, 2010, 9:25am
To my mind any garage would have the devil of a job finding the PATS module in it's caged hidey hole,and twice the job removing it.Something definitely does not ring true here !
                GOZZ.
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Cosray on Aug 26th, 2010, 9:41am
Gozz  - when the PATS module was a separate "box" - WHERE would it sit?

Do they sit in this funny upside-down cubbyhole over the glovecompartment, under the Airbag?

I know that space contains the Servotronic + two other relays/modules. What are they, do you know?

In my experience PATS is just a software function toghether with the key RFID / sensor ring module and a few pinouts on the EEC-V energising the Start Inhibitor Relay, correct?

Ray
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Mike H on Aug 26th, 2010, 12:26pm
Was written somewhere else very recently, is it not indeed up behind the glove box area somewhere close by the PCM module? Like wot Gozz said ;D


So "burnt out" suggests the water problem causing Voltages to get into it where they shouldn't (?)

 
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Highlander on Aug 26th, 2010, 1:36pm
Up behind the glovebox is exactly where the water goes if it reaches the right level in the passenger side fusebox, it will use the same hole as the main loom from the bulkhead to the fusebox..
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by gozz on Aug 26th, 2010, 7:47pm
Ray.
On the right hand drive cars at least,the PATS module is to the right of the central control module,it is a black box encased in a strong steel frame which is bolted to the body.Regarding the fitment to EEC V PCMs,I have an early 24v limousine which  would have EEC V and has the separate PATS module.Whether or not later models changed,I could not say.There are between two and four relays in the roof of the glovebox according to equipment levels,28,31,37 and 38,the handbook details them,although I detect discrepancies in their descriptions.
                                           GOZZ.
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Cosray on Aug 26th, 2010, 8:07pm
Thanks Gozz. Another step to enlightenment.

What are these numbers? I do not recognise them. I have the TIS0009 CD-ROM which only shows two open-ended wires going to and fro the PATS "unit".

My EEC-V is/was bolted/riveted in a steel frame; the CCM slides and is on top. No other modules visible there.

I remember three or so relays in the cubbyhole over the glovebox. They are sort of clipped to the ceiling. Are they significant? What are they?

Could you send me more details? Just in case I have a PATS breakdown  - touch wood sofar everything broke down BUT PATS ;-) - I would like to be in the know.

Anything available?
What "handbook"? Is there one?

Thanks,
Ray
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by gozz on Aug 26th, 2010, 8:41pm
Ray.
Do you mean the relay numbers ? that is the numbering in the Scorpio hand book which is printed on this site somewhere,if Simmo pops up he will soon put you on to it.
The PATS unit is where I said,to the right of the CCM, 95FG-19A366-AE is it's part number,it has a 26 pin multiplug.
The relays above the glovebox are listed as:- heater blower motor,yellow
                                                                        headlamp washer,blue
                                                                        automatic speed control,green
                                                                        air compressor,yellow.
But as I said this may not be true to form,others on here have expressed doubts as to the correctness of the descriptions.
                                                 GOZZ.
                                                                         
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Cosray on Aug 26th, 2010, 9:41pm
Gozz, thank you. That is most helpful information. It will allow me to put the pieces of the puzzle together on the basis of my own documentation.

The PATS location versus the units in the cubbyhole above was not clear to me; now it is. Thx again.

Ciao,
Ray
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Simmo on Aug 27th, 2010, 6:54am
This might help (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/electrical/antitheft/centralcontrolmod.pdf)

The Handbook (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/handbook.htm) details are here :)
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Cosray on Aug 27th, 2010, 8:09am
Thanks Simmo for your info.

So the confusion arises when the term CCM and PATS module are used alternatively. The CCM controls many AntiTheft functions.

I understood there once used to be a separate box/module called the PATS module.

In gameboy's case the garage may have detected a bad CCM then; that is plausible, don't you think? It would explain the many other seemingly unrelated complaints.

Gameboy - any news from your garage yet?

Curious,
Ray
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Mike H on Aug 29th, 2010, 10:07pm
The confusion arises I think because early models have a separate PATS module. Like mine most likely. However for later rmodels the PATS function is incorporated into the PCM computer "software". So no extra PATS module. Is that right?
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Cosray on Aug 29th, 2010, 10:12pm
Mike H - exactly, that has been my point for some time.

Either there is or was a separate module called PATS - where was it located?

Later on - so after 1995 and before 1998 - I understand the PATS *function* was incorporated in the EEC-V - hence a different loom and pin-out.

From what year or version onwards was this revision implemented?

That would certainly shed a brighter light on PATS behaviour and our gameboy's problem here as well as his garage's conclusions and invoices.

Ray
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Tompion on Aug 29th, 2010, 10:21pm
That's what it says HERE (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm)

"The PATS system was first a separate module mounted beneath the dashboard, and later became part of the engine management system, and is connected to a transceiver mounted around the ignition barrel."
Title: Re: Starting problem cossie 2.9 24v
Post by Cosray on Aug 30th, 2010, 10:10am
Right Tompion... thanks.

That would imply that gameboy's car - R reg 1997 - does NOT have a separate PATS module.

So please gameboy, ask your garage what exactly is it that they found that was "burnt"?

Almost certainly it is not a PATS module. The transponder 'round the ingnition key perhaps? CCM? What?

GAmeboy's car's symptoms are erratic:  "...suddenly have electrical problem key in and dash lights up as normal but no start, can jump start straight onto starter motor and engine will start and run normaly, take key out and dash is still lit up, have changed driver side fuse box made no diference, ..."

In had those symptoms in my Cossie, a year before the engine compartment loom finally decided to melt because of age, heat and moisture from coolant.

Curious,
Ray


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