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        General >> Problems >> Probem with interior buzzing noise
        
(Message started by: cafsyn on Sep 4^th, 2010, 3:28pm)

Title: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by cafsyn on Sep 4^th, 2010, 3:28pm

Hi all
I have an annoying problem with buzzing noise (warning alarm) inside car and I've seen similar issues mentioned on the forum, but nothing quite the same.

Symptoms:
1. when engine switched on, it's OK, but when I engage gear, then buzzer comes on
2. interior lights failed

What I've tried having read forum:
1. removed fuses 24 and 26 - this works to kill the noise when driving (thank god), but interior lights and radio not operating (all else OK ... though alarm now goes off sometimes when I start engine unless I keep door open (!!), but maybe a separate issue for another time?)
2. replaced fuses #24 and #36 - sadly, fuse #36 kept blowing (or maybe it was #24, can't quite remember ... I can check if it's important) - this didn't work!
3. replaced relay R16, but this didn't help

Before going to garage, does anyone have any ideas what might be wrong? is it timer module?

cheers Carl
04.09.2010

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Tompion on Sep 4^th, 2010, 3:44pm

Fuse 36 is the most likely problem, if it keeps blowing then you need to find out why.
When removing the interior light panel it can blow fuse 36 (presumably shorting in the process of removing the panel) so you could check for problems there.

What happens if you take out fuse 24 & replace fuse 36, does it still blow?

These electrical problems can be time consuming & garages tend not to know much about Scorpio’s – so likely to be expensive if you go down that route.

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by tonyboy on Sep 4^th, 2010, 4:28pm

Is the buzzing a continuous buzz or is it dingggggg .... dingggggg sound as if you have left it in gear with the door open or the lights with the engine off and the door open

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Mike H on Sep 5^th, 2010, 1:51pm

Yes it's a continuous buzzing or "bleeeeeeeep..." if a door is opened when ignition on, running and in gear. So suggests dodgy door switch (?)

And 'ding ding' chiming when ignition turned off but lights left on and door is opened.

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Cosray on Sep 5^th, 2010, 9:24pm

Hi cafsyn - what type, model, option pack, year?

HERE's what the fuses are for:

http://cid-eb36f845ea9b8fb6.office.live.com/self.aspx/WIRING%20DIAGRAMS/FUSE%5E_DETAILS.pdf

Let us know exactly what fuse # blows, please?

Ray

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Geoff_W on Sep 5^th, 2010, 10:12pm

Cafsyn,

I think Mike has hit it for you.

PRND switch has a warning buzzer that goes of if the vehicle is running, in gear and the drivers door is open. Safety measure and in your case your problem may be a doorswitch. When you say interior lights failed do they operate when doors other than the drivers door is open, or can you switch them on from within the car, in which case it really looks like a doorswitch.

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Cosray on Sep 5^th, 2010, 10:44pm

In fact it is the Central Timer Module which produces the ding-dong sound.

It is here:

http://picasaweb.google.nl/babpic123/LocatieCentralTimerRadioInterface11jun10?authkey=Gv1sRgCOyqvbP3-_7dZw&feat=directlink

This module, dedicated to all timing & chiming functions, is controlled by the Autogear lever position potentiometer, the KEY-IN, lights-on and driver door entry-light switch through the CCM's software, next to the EEC-V.

The CTM will also dim the entry lights through the entry light relay as well as the Battery Saver relay, after one hour of door(s) open.

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/handbook134.gif

Fuse 36 Battery Saver is here:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/handbook132.gif

Depending on the various parameters the CCM will trigger the Central Timing Module.

It is not controilled by the door-ajar switches, which will only trigger the relevant dash light and/or inhibit the alarm/central locking system.

If there is a short in the door entry light switches cabling or lamps the Central Timer lacks a proper signal and will chime.

Here's the diagram, showing both paths for F24 and F36:

http://cid-eb36f845ea9b8fb6.office.live.com/self.aspx/WIRING%20DIAGRAMS/ENTRY%20ILLUMINATION.pdf

So please check if ALL doorswitches will function and make the interior lights go ON/OFF.

Also make sure the 20 seconds timing function is available. If not this could point to a failing Central Timer, not its sound effect but specifically its timing and switching function.

... and there is another famous culprit for these symptoms: the 10 or so connectors' contacts under the junctionbox with the big multi-plug. You can just about touch them by reaching up into the A-beam from the inside under the dash. Disconnect all, sprayclean and replace.

Pictures here:

http://picasaweb.google.nl/babpic123/ScorpioFotoSVoorForum?authkey=Gv1sRgCOKb-6D8qY2NhAE&feat=directlink

In conclusion, sometimes the single-wire faston-contact on the doorswitch, inside the beam, will drop off into the beam and make ground contact.

The CTM will understand this as a permanent "door-open" and will continuously chime.

If one of the doorswitches fails this might be the cause for all symptoms and easily cured..

HTH
Ray

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by cafsyn on Sep 8^th, 2010, 12:07am

Hi all
Really great responses so far!
I just went out to check and this is what happens in details
Fuse #24 - putting this back alone sets off continuous "beeeeping" when gear engaged, the radio now works, but fuse doesn't blow
Fuse #36 - putting this back alone doesn't set off noise in gear, and does not blow
Fuse #24 and #36 together - this blows the #36 fuse when ignition engaged

Regards model - it's 5 dr ultima estate, 2.3 16v automatic, 1997 P reg

The interior lights don't operate at all, no matter what I do - i.e. put back fuse 24 or fuse 36 makes no difference
Driver door switch must be OK to some extent since when engine on and in neutral , the noise goes on / off when door is open / closed respectively - seems like an intermittent issue, but not main cause of fuse 36 blowing - i'll get door switch renewed anyway to be sure

I'll have to think about the multiplug under dash, not too familiar - sounds like a good suggestion though

If the above helps pin down the issue, then happy to hear further

cheers Carl

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Tompion on Sep 8^th, 2010, 10:02am

The door switch simply earths the 2 wires connected to it, no point in replacing it if the sound stops when you push the switch in. It won't be the switch itself blowing the fuse.

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Tompion on Sep 8^th, 2010, 10:38am

With fuse 36 removed the interior lights won’t work but the radio should. If the fuse blows when you put back fuse 24 then you are probably looking for a short somewhere, this is unlikely to be the multiplug under the dash (fusebox connections).
Look behind all the interior lights including the floor lights front & back which sometimes get a kicking. Bear in mind what I said in my first post – just removing/ replacing the lights live can blow fuse 36.

Just noticed you say
"this blows the #36 fuse when ignition engaged"
Are you sure it doesn't blow until you turn on the ignition?

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Cosray on Sep 8^th, 2010, 11:56am

Carl, do you read electronics diagrams?

From the link I posted it follows that the relationship between Fuse 24 and 36 is the Battery Saver Relay K115 (Batt Junction Box) and the Entry Illumination Relay K112 (Central Junction Box).

Since you mention IGN ON induces the fault, electronically seen, downstream, the BSR comes before the EIR in other words when IGN OFF the BSR will stay enrgised during one hour or so with the aim of delayed switching off all current to the interior lights of which the Ultima holds many.

My first guess would be to inspect that relay/socket as it carries both +12 and Ground and is a moving candidate for a short.

HTH
Ray

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Highlander on Sep 8^th, 2010, 12:01pm

on 09/08/10 at 11:56:19, Cosray wrote:

Since you mention IGN ON induces the fault, electronically seen, downstream, the BSR comes before the EIR in other words when IGN OFF the BSR will stay enrgised during one hour or so with the aim of delayed switching off all current to the interior lights of which the Ultima holds many.

I tried 3 times to follow that but I had to give up! ;D

I'm afraid I'm just a spanners and hammers mechanic ;D

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Cosray on Sep 8^th, 2010, 12:44pm

Highlander, I'd expected Carl to complain, not you ;-)

What it means is: inspect the BSR - Battery Saver Relay; couldn't that be exchanged for test purposes for another one?

Alt. inspect the EIR - Entry Illumination Relay.

HTH
Ray

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Tompion on Sep 8^th, 2010, 2:22pm

And just to confuse matters more the interior light relay is R5 - labelled heated rear screen in the handbook.

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Cosray on Sep 8^th, 2010, 2:40pm

Tompion, thx for reminding us, there are two named identically - true!
Ray

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by gozz on Sep 8^th, 2010, 8:44pm

Cafsyn.
Could your central timer module be up the creek ? have you tried removing the plug from the bottom of it,under the dash behind the lower soft cover near the left knee on RHD cars,at least that will stop the beeping,the unit also controls the intermittent wipers.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Mike H on Sep 11^th, 2010, 12:44pm

Wet / corroded fuse box? Broken wire? Shorted wire?

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Cosray on Sep 20^th, 2010, 8:23pm

Cafsyn - what's happenin'?

Any luck with our suggestions?

Curious,
Ray

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by cafsyn on Sep 20^th, 2010, 10:09pm

Hi Ray and others helping out, appreciated
Just logged on after a few days away

I'll need to read the info carefully now!
Give me a few days to figure out, it's a steep learning curve

From one of the replies, I like the idea of unplugging the loudspeaker making the racket .....

cheers Carl

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by cafsyn on Oct 2^nd, 2010, 9:40pm

Commiserations to Lee for a similar posting, earplugs are a good investment perhaps!

Clarification for my situation:

As ever, fuse 36 blows (when fuse 24 in place) .... ignition does not need to be ON ..... in latest check, the key was inserted into ignition socket, but key not turned at all – incidentally, driver door was open at time. Hence, don’t know what happens when key out, door closed, etc.... I’ve now run out of fuses to ping. :-)

Problem happened on engine start up (back in March!) .... work around was removing fuse 24, as you know. Now I’ve detached CTM cable, ultimate noise pollution approach, thanks for that pointer.

Based on Ray’s and other comments, I looked at wiring diagrams ... I had already a while ago replaced R16 relay (presumably, the same as K115 battery saver relay, BSR) – this makes no difference to my problem – fuse 36 still blows.

Hence, I focussed on R5 now removed from base (presumably, the same as K112, central junction box, CJB). The R5 relay seemed to be identical to my spare relay when I tested resistance between the contacts. Also, same behaviour as relay in R4 position. So far, so good.

No fuse in 36 now, but having put fuse 24 back, of course, I then tested voltage in base unit of R5 and R4 relays, just to get a comparison. BTW, I assume the base unit for R5 (and R4) should not come out of underlying “circuit board” ... at least, I didn’t want to pull too hard!

Anyhow, voltage pattern was different, not sure if this is an issue or not :

R5 – found 12 volts between “base unit” nodes 86 and 30 only – this was slightly concerning since it was different to R4, but I wasn't sure if important

R4 –found 12 volts between “base unit” nodes 87 and 30 only – this seems to make sense given this is where the ”open, high resistance” switch would go across (when relay is put back)

This is as far I have got :-)

Final comment - interior lights not working at all, so maybe I should be looking for that "short". I haven't taken light panels etc out yet .... is that what I should be doing now?

cheers carl

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Mike H on Oct 3^rd, 2010, 5:58pm

I could be wrong but I was under the impression all relays can be unplugged, (?) typically have 6mm wide blade type connector "pins" (?)

If very tight suggests slight corrosion making them jam in, maybe a thorough soak in WD40 and left overnight.

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Cosray on Oct 4^th, 2010, 6:59pm

Yes, any relay can be unplugged. Since each variation by country, option packages and model had to be accomodated you will find that all relays and custom-bridges in the Junctionboxes are removable.

When they jam - it is usually a case of corrosion, not surprising after 12 years since last productiondat.

Wiggle them a wee bit, do not use screwdrivers to lift them but preferably use wooden levers like the sharpened end of a paintbrush, to avoid harm and breaking.

Do notice what colours and types are located where; do use a permanent felttip for marking since there is no book available what colour goes where...

HTH
ray

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by Mike H on Oct 4^th, 2010, 9:18pm

Ta, as I thought.

Title: Re: Probem with interior buzzing noise
Post by cafsyn on Oct 12^th, 2010, 8:57pm

Ok, thanks - I'll have a go at removing/inspecting the lower yellow "cube" that the R5 relay fits into

I might try what Lee has found and reconnect CTM to see what happens

carl