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        General >> Problems >> 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when cold.
        
(Message started by: crash on Dec 9^th, 2010, 4:29pm)

Title: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when cold.
Post by crash on Dec 9^th, 2010, 4:29pm

Hello to one and all,

My '98 Ultima Estate 2.3 has started to be a bit of a pain! Only happens when it is being started from cold, and it is actually cold outside. Like now!

The car starts immediately, in fact it only has to see the key and it's off so no problems there. It is once started if I then put it into D or R then the engine will just stall. Restarting the engine is now a little harder and requires the accelerator to be put hard to the floor beyond the kickdown. The engine starts but is very lumpy, almost like it's dropped a cylinder, and as you rev it the lumpiness remains. If you release the accelerator then the revs drop back and the engine dies. In order to get the engine to maintain idle you have to hold some revs on and keep it that way for at least 5 mins. Once something has 'warmed up' sufficiently then it's back to normal operation and the revs will sit at normal idle and off we go.

I have searched through the forum but with the 'search' facility not working for me I cannot see any threads of a similar nature.
The battery is only a few months old and I gave the MAF a giood clean out in the summer.

Does anyone have any ideas?

Many thanks,

Paul B

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by Jonnycab on Dec 10^th, 2010, 4:35am

This is a problem I've suffered from (so have others) every winter for the last 3 years.....engine starts fine but as soon as you put it in D or R it stalls or it's really lumpy like it's running on 2 cylinders ::)

I seem to remember that the general belief was that it was a sticking internal autobox solenoid at fault & that replacing it meant removing the box & replacing the solenoid ???....So you either removed the box & replaced the dodgy soleniod (alot of work) or just learned to live with it in the cold weather.

But I have recently found this not to be the cause in my case (could possibly be the same with others suffering this problem).

Recently, on the odd occasion, when pulling out of a junction, the car would almost stall as though it was trying to pull away in 3rd gear & then it would feel as though it had dropped into 1st (where it should have been).

Dreading that this was the beginning of the end for my autobox (was rapidly getting worse), I decided to try & rule out any other factors like plugs, coils etc.

It ended up to be a coil pack problem & on replacing them (had a spare pair in the shed) the problem was gone.

But that wasn't the only thing replacing the coil packs fixed....it also fixed the cold start running/gear selection problem as well :D

Now, (in this current arctic spell of weather) the Scorp starts first time, ticks over fine & doesn't stall when selecting D or R :)

The coil packs didn't give any usual indication that they were on the way out.....like mis-firing under load etc, but they were obviously the fault.

Maybe it's a case of when they get a bit old (even though they work fine under normal conditions) they are susceptible to really cold weather ? :)

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by PJDavis on Dec 10^th, 2010, 10:29am

One problem I have found is, making sure the spark-plugs are tightened down properly! I'm not suggesting that one over-tightens them, I have an old-fashioned 'Champion' ratchet that can be set to an angle of tightness after the plug has been tightened to rest on it's seat. (I also realise that this should be in the event of a clean seat) Twice I've had to tighten plugs down further than I would have expected. On one occasion the reason I even looked was because the car was behaving just as you describe. The top-cover deadens a lot of sound, as soon as I removed it and listened to the engine I could hear the offending plug shorting, and making a ticking sound.

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by crash on Dec 10^th, 2010, 10:36am

Thanks for the info Jonnycab. It sounds like the exact same problem though I have never had any engine hesitation etc once I get on my way.

I've also had the usual gearbox lag when selecting reverse for quite some time now. Always worse on cold days. I was aware of the solenoid causing that problem but, as you say, it's a lot of work, and money, to get to. I did go ahead and change the box fluid and the filter but it didn't really make any difference.

Coil Packs? If they will sort the stalling problem that will be great. I'm on the hunt! ................................................................................................................................................................................................................ :o Found one......gulp £100! but the car's not
worth that! oh well, there goes my Christmas present. :'(

Edited to say that they are on eBay at £57 all in (Bosch) which is much better.

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by crash on Dec 10^th, 2010, 10:39am

PJ, you were posting as I typed.
Thanks also for that. I will, in the interest of finance, get my torque wrench out and have a gander. When I used to look after my cars myself, I've got lazy lately, I used to always replace plugs and then torque them in correctly.
Fingers crossed!

Paul B

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by Pianoman on Dec 10^th, 2010, 6:50pm

Thanks Jonnycab, I am also getting exactly the same problem as Crash. I will look into changing the coil pack.
Thanks
Tony

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by gozz on Dec 10^th, 2010, 8:44pm

'Motorist Warehouse' sell coils for £39.99 plus £9.99 p&p,330323131024 . I've had things from there before,all OK.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by crash on Dec 12^th, 2010, 9:34am

Cheers, Gozz.

It get's cheaper and cheaper!

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by TiberiuS on Dec 12^th, 2010, 11:42am

Hi Paul. I started to get the same thing on my 2.3, ditto on the coilpack idea.

Especially during the last winter I owned it, sometimes it would struggle to idle on cold starts and drop a cylinder, usually it would clear after a couple of blips of the throttle but occasionally it would drop the cylinder again and stall (or want to stall) when I dropped it into gear. No problems at all when it was up to temp, it ran perfectly.

New plugs and coils cured mine, in my case I suspect the actual cause was the beige connector on the end of one of the HT leads which feeds the other two cylinders, on mine those connectors had burned/degraded quite badly and were cracking up at the ends - whether this was normal or down to the plugs not being tightened properly by a previous garage, I've no idea.

Also, check the wiring which snakes around the back of the cylinder head which feeds the coilpacks, on mine the insulation had started to degrade but I think they changed the type of wiring used at some point, not all 2.3 Scorpios have that problem. I've still got some photos of that wiring if it would help you.

Bruce.

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by crash on Dec 13^th, 2010, 3:17pm

Bruce,
thanks for the info. I will go and have alook under the bonnet when I get a chance. I am fairly certain the plugs are getting on a bit so I might whip them out and have a look, and check that wiring section.

Cheers,

Paul

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by Highlander on Dec 13^th, 2010, 3:21pm

£31 Delivered ;D

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Ford-Escort-RS2000-Ignition-coil-0221505423-91XF12029AA-/350398405669?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item51955f5c25#ht_1786wt_962

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by TiberiuS on Dec 16^th, 2010, 8:59pm

Hi Paul. I dug out a couple of the photos I took of the loom damage on mine, still had them on my Photobucket. They're quite small I'm afraid, I do still have my old computer's harddisk in my office somewhere with some more images of the loom, but they probably wouldn't help you much more.

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l89/TiberiuS1250/Loom1.jpg?t=1292532227

http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l89/TiberiuS1250/Loom2.jpg?t=1292532425

These were taken back in late 2005/early 2006 when I had the loom problems, symptoms were occasional misfire which gradually got worse, eventually it wouldn't start at all after I did some unrelated work around the back of the engine and disturbed the loom. From memory there were two different types of wiring used, Artinel and Raychem - mine was a June '96 car and had Artinel - hence why not all cars suffer from the problem.

Mine was so bad that by the time I'd disconnected the coils etc, virtually all of the wiring on that loom near the top of the engine had shed its insulation and was showing bare copper. I rebuilt the top part of the loom with silicone wire and Gremfix sleeving and that lasted fine until I sold the car, of course a new loom would be the best repair.

Bruce.

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by Mike H on Dec 26^th, 2010, 1:34pm

on 12/13/10 at 15:17:22, crash wrote:

I am fairly certain the plugs are getting on a bit

The electrodes can unobtrusively wear away to nothing ;D

A while ago mine was working on 5mm gaps or something equally rediculous.

Tip ~ I've had to rewire my loom as well and now I leave off the plastic cover, especially in Summer to give the heat a better chance to escape

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by crash on Jan 21^st, 2011, 11:33am

At last, Christmas is out of the way and the coils are ordered. Oh, I do look forward to not having to spend 10+ mins in the early morning getting the car going. Better blinking fix it!!

Tiberius, thanks for the very helpful pics. I had a look and all seems to be in good order.

Mike, 5mm! I always thought it was a tractor!! Well, at least agricultural machinery of some sort. Mine look not too bad.

I'll post the outcome of the new coils.

Cheers.

Paul B

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by Pianoman on Jan 21^st, 2011, 12:24pm

I have just given mine a dose of Wd 40 around the coil pack area and the wires around the top area of the engine bay and its not stalling now :)
Tony

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by crash on Feb 8^th, 2011, 9:23am

Cheers Tony that made me feel so much better after buying the coil packs!!!
However, I have now replaced them courtesy of 'ignitionland' on Ebay, thanks to Pianoman, and my problem seems to have gone away. Today was coldest morning so far and had no issues. I didn't get the WD40 out so that I would know whether it was the coils alone that had sorted it.

Thanks to one and all for all the help.

Paul B

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by Highlander on Feb 8^th, 2011, 10:20am

on 01/21/11 at 12:24:19, Pianoman wrote:

I have just given mine a dose of Wd 40 around the coil pack area and the wires around the top area of the engine bay and its not stalling now :)
Tony

Tony, you dont have a coil pack on the 12v ;D

Title: Re: 2.3 16v Auto keeps stalling after start when c
Post by Tompion on Feb 8^th, 2011, 10:28am

Good news :)

Just a note on the autobox problem from cold, it is a real issue – but could easily be misdiagnosed. It only ever occurs on mine when selecting reverse from cold (never had it happen when first selecting drive).
A misfire doesn’t really describe it – it is so lumpy the whole car shakes, it won’t rev & is therefore almost impossible to move even on the flat.

I do know that it hasn’t been coil packs or loom damage not only because they were new but because on a couple of occasions it produced 3 autobox codes (one of which was along the lines of rev limit reached – which I assume means the engine cuts a coil/injectors to restrict the perceived over revving).

Of course the risk is my coils/loom are no longer new & there is the chance I may continue to blame the box when it isn’t the problem, although in that case I would expect it to happen in Drive as well as reverse.