Ford Scorpio Forum - Print Page


    
      
        Ford Scorpio Forum
        (https://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl)
      

        General >> Problems >> Not Firing
        
(Message started by: lesterlad aka Rodders on Dec 29^th, 2010, 7:16pm)

Title: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Dec 29^th, 2010, 7:16pm

Went to start the car this afternoon, engine turns over and it initially fires for about 1 second then nothing but engine still turning over on the key.
I have done this a number of times over a period of 6 hrs but still the same outcome.
Everything was perfectly ok on Monday night with no symptoms or misfire when I parked it up, It stood all day Tues and Wed Morning and I'm hoping it's just damp and not the dreaded shut off loom.

Does the loom usually pack up without warning or is there any symptoms beforehand ?

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Malcolm73 on Dec 29^th, 2010, 7:48pm

My car is a 24v Ultima, always garaged when not in use and has not been used during the cold spell. We have used my wife’s car with front wheel drive and better traction.

This afternoon my car with a new Varta battery would not start.

Normally it always starts instantly. After long turn of the key one cylinder just about fired. After about four key turns it ran but was misfiring, however it came to life and then ran normally.

We have had a dramatic upturn in temperature and a lot of condensation, I am sure this is the cause of your car not starting.

You cold try a hot hair dryer on the spark plug leads / ignition components..

Regards, Malcolm

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by gozz on Dec 29^th, 2010, 8:09pm

Rodders.
It could well be the engine loom a bit raggy ably assisted by the damp spell,they are not complex,you can easily whip some insulation off and have a look.Before you take the top cover off to investigate baked wiring,look at the bits that are underneath the intake pipe,best to whip it off or turn it round.These bits do disintegrate and short out,particularly the TPS wires.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Dec 31^st, 2010, 3:52pm

Have done what you suggested Gozz, wires under the intake pipe look ok, as do others, looks as if they have been repaired sometime earlier before I had it.
The only wire that was suspect was the one that goes between the rocker cover and the bulkhead (not the coil wires) and connects at the top right of the rocker cover.
I have stripped off all the old insulation on that and replaced with new but still no go. (just runs for a second or two then stops)
Just a point, If one coil has packed up would that prevent firing up or would it run just on two cylinders ?
Plus how do you test a coil ? ???

Going to remove top cover and have a look under there when I have shook the remnants of this flu off.

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Cosray on Dec 31^st, 2010, 4:13pm

Rodders, 2.3 is that a 6 cyl.? 4?
Does it have a triple-coilpack (wasted spark) or individual coils? Do not know this engine.

Anyway any primary coil should measure about 1-5 Ohms between the respective 12V-live and common ground; the secundary should measure about 10-15.000 Ohms between the two plugssockets; on the individual coiltype all same but the high value must be measured between plugsocket and either of the 12V/ground contacts.

Check for overheated body and cracks. My 24v fires up and idles runs reasonably well on 4 but absolutely lacks power.

You might also check the EDIS and its connector. Sits right behind the headlight near the coil; flat black package with a twelve pin connector. Needs cleaning.

Also in this weathre your CPS is suspect; sits under the engine and should be protected from snow and ice by the undercover, however it is known to fail after a carwash with underwash.

If thats's all OK your engine compartment loom is suspect and yes, it will fail w/o warning as it's probably baked and isolation brittle, especially near any hotspots :(

What type/year exactly Scorpio?
HTH
Ray

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Dec 31^st, 2010, 4:33pm

Ray, Its a 1996 2.3 four cylinder, 2 coils which sit under a cover along the centre of the rocker cover, each one serving 2 spark plugs/cylinders

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Simmo on Dec 31^st, 2010, 5:33pm

Rod, This article (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/dohcloom.htm) may help and it shows how a coil can be damaged. Happy New Year, and may lots of your biscuits come from Gozz !!. ;D Mike.

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Cosray on Dec 31^st, 2010, 6:46pm

Rodders, Simmo has a very plausible article there it seems. Worth following up!

Ray

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Tompion on Dec 31^st, 2010, 11:52pm

A year or so ago my 2.3 wouldn’t start, I put my foot to the floor and cranked it quite some time – finally it fired on 2 & eventually on 4. It’s not happened before or since – I think I know what caused it but no point going into that at the moment. I assume the 2.3 doesn’t have the Wide Open Throttle inhibitor – if it does it obviously doesn’t work on mine :).

Does the PATS light flash (you need to shield it with your hand in daylight – can be difficult to see). You can get a situation where it fires with the petrol from the initial ignition on but the fuel pump doesn’t kick in as it should.

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Jan 1^st, 2011, 2:08pm

Tompion, I have checked the PATS light, It goes out and it is not flashing when IGN is turned on.
Had a hand held scanner ( OB ll [U380] ) plugged in but no codes are showing up.

Going to have to wait now for it to stop raining before I start messing around under the bonnet checking the coils and fuses/relays, last thing I need now is water dripping into the fuse boxes. :o

On an older type car with a carb I would have put it down to fuel starvation by what its doing.
If I can't bring it back to life by next week I'll have to resort to a mobile sparky I think., which is a cost I really could have done without this time of year :'(

Ah well, time to get the bus pass out I suppose. :(

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Simmo on Jan 1^st, 2011, 4:53pm

Rod, have you looked at This page (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm) re the PATS ? :)

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by TiberiuS on Jan 1^st, 2011, 5:01pm

Rodders - on mine at least, the section of wiring which went to the coils themselves was at fault, anything below the injector rail seemed OK still (heat rises etc)

Coils - unless the primary winding has gone open circuit, they're gonna be difficult to test because they can fail to work at certain loads but still appear intact electrically - I'd be happy to be corrected on this but I haven't found anyone yet who has a good method of testing them. Coils can be a problem on any car, it's not just a Scorpio issue. It's always handy to have a couple of spares, there's been links posted with the coils selling for good prices on eBay - might be worth picking up one or even a pair.

Just my opinion, and more a nugget of general advice which might not help your problem but any car which is 10+ years old is going to develop gremlins, when doing any work on both of ours I always clean any visible connectors with De-Oxit, plug and unplug them a few times to clean the contacts and then protect them with dielectric grease before assembling them again. The same when doing the yearly service, always go around and clean and reseat the connectors to the sensors etc on the engine.

That's a lesson I've learned from years of repairing audio gear, dirty switches and connectors cause some really oddball faults, cars are sensitive in this way too. A lot of modern cars rely on 5v signal voltages to most sensors, those voltages are at very low currents and will easily get corrupted with dirty connectors etc.

Good luck.

Bruce :)

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Highlander on Jan 18^th, 2011, 11:40am

Fuel pump relay??
Fuel cut off switch?

Can you hear the pump in the tank prime the fuel system when you turn the ignition on Rod?
It should start pumping then stop when the pressure has built up

Are you getting a spark?

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Jan 18^th, 2011, 12:50pm

1) Fuel pump relay working.

2) Fuel cut off switch working (gave it a good thump and button popped up then no firing first turn of key, press button down then fires first turn of key for 2 secs and cuts out) Second and subsequent turns of key = no firing at all, just cranks over, leave for a few hours and it fires again for a couple of secs.

3) Can hear fuel pump priming for a few sec's then stops.

4) must be getting spark or there would be no initial firing on first turn of key.

Tried to access crankshaft position sensor with no joy (that's why I haven't swapped shut off loom yet, waiting for sparkie [when I can get one] to do that along with changing air sensor plug and earth the temp sender )

Good job I've got a bus pass or I'd be stuck.........(with her indoors all day ;D )

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Cosray on Jan 18^th, 2011, 1:05pm

Werner nobbel had similar probs that could be pinpointed to and solved by spraying WD-40.
It's always an old loom, a dirty connector and the deadly combination of oil, moist, coolant and heat.

Read here:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1295035527

HTH
Ray

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Highlander on Jan 18^th, 2011, 1:58pm

on 01/18/11 at 12:50:33, lesterlad aka Rodders wrote:

Good job I've got a bus pass or I'd be stuck.........(with her indoors all day ;D )

on 01/11/11 at 16:24:09, lesterlad aka Rodders wrote:

I have no pets, just a wife, she does like going for walkies tho, mainly to the clothes and shoe shops. :(

I'm storing all this for future use.... ;)

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Jan 18^th, 2011, 2:25pm

on 01/18/11 at 13:58:57, Highlander wrote:

I'm storing all this for future use.... ;)

That's why I never take her to Harewood. ;D

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Jan 18^th, 2011, 2:39pm

on 01/18/11 at 13:05:46, Cosray wrote:

Done the WD40 job, all the sensor connections and wiring except for the Crank sensor (can't get at it) and no difference

It Does strike a chord about the condensation issue though.
On the day it it started doing what it is, the previous day when it stood all day there was heavy condensation in the air.
The day before that everything was running / working perfectly.

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Highlander on Jan 18^th, 2011, 2:52pm

on 12/29/10 at 19:16:45, lesterlad aka Rodders wrote:

fuel problem? fuel pressure regulator? are the injectors working?
is this the one you were draining the petrol from Rod?

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Cosray on Jan 18^th, 2011, 2:57pm

... did you get to do the EDIS and inspect and sprayclean its connector? It sits right under the headlamp, L or R.

You may need to unbolt and just lift the expansion tank for the coolant to get to it. No need to disconnect the tubes in my 24v. Very moist spot.

Ray

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Jan 18^th, 2011, 5:19pm

on 01/18/11 at 14:52:43, Highlander wrote:

fuel problem? fuel pressure regulator? are the injectors working?
is this the one you were draining the petrol from Rod?

Not sure about fuel pressure regulator / injectors.
I was draining petrol from the doner car for use in my chainsaw.

on 01/18/11 at 14:57:40, Cosray wrote:

To be honest the EDIS never crossed my mind.

Anyway, finally got a mechanic to come tonight, he's removed the fuel shut off loom from mine, whilst doing so he noticed a broken connection on the body of one of the coils.
He's coming back tomorrow to take the new loom and coils off the donor car and change over any connections that need changing.

Come hell or high water my Scorpio WILL run again.

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Cosray on Jan 18^th, 2011, 6:31pm

... a broken connection on one of the coils... how lucky can you be...

... it will run again soon...

Ray

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Jan 19^th, 2011, 6:20pm

Update

Well, It WAS the fuel shut off loom that was shorting out after all.
But my goodness, what a palava fitting the new one, it had double the amount of wires going into the main connection block than the old one had, the sparkie eventually got it fitted and working after 4hrs of testing, cutting, extending, splicing, soldering, and cursing.

The main outcome though is...........My Scorpio Runs again. :)

I shall be stripping and selling some spares off the 2ltr 16v Ultima saloon (when the weather warms up)that don't fit the Ghia X estate to recoup some of my expenditure, so keep your eyes open on Parts for Sale.

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Cosray on Jan 19^th, 2011, 6:29pm

... that si good news, congrats! ;D

For my curiosity - what spot(s) what locations were damaged?

By Fuel Shut off loom do you mean the loom coming ftom connector C221 (square/cube under/close to ABS module) over the head to the autobox?

Curious,
Ray

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Jan 19^th, 2011, 7:37pm

on 01/19/11 at 18:29:55, Cosray wrote:

... that si good news, congrats! ;D

For my curiosity - what spot(s) what locations were damaged?

By Fuel Shut off loom do you mean the loom coming ftom connector C221 (square/cube under/close to ABS module) over the head to the autobox?

Curious,
Ray

Most of the insulation was cracked, the worse bits were to the camshaft sensor, + cranckshaft sensor and the air intake pipe.

Yes, from square cube main connector below the power steering reservoir to TPS, Thermostat(s), crankshaft, camshaft sensors, IACV etc, etc.
My original loom had no connections to the gearbox or kickdown as mine is manual not auto.

Title: ford oxygen sensor location???
Post by jansengeorge on Jan 20^th, 2011, 4:09am

MOved to HERE (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1295640694;start=0#0)

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Cosray on Jan 20^th, 2011, 8:47am

on 01/19/11 at 19:37:40, lesterlad aka Rodders wrote:

Aha... the usual suspects... good it was found & cured but be vigilant!

Ray

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Tompion on Jan 20^th, 2011, 10:27am

on 01/19/11 at 19:37:40, lesterlad aka Rodders wrote:

He must of done some work on the other loom as well as there aren't any autobox connectors in the Fuel cut off loom of the 2.3.
There's C110 & C112
The fuel cut off would appear to be C110
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/eecvlooms.htm

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by 5stud on Jan 20^th, 2011, 10:34am

you got it in one gozz.its a big by are standards butch pickup but they probley sold more on a monday than they sold scorpios ever

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Cosray on Jan 20^th, 2011, 10:38am

... why was it ever called Fuel Cut Off Loom..?

Curious,
Ray

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Tompion on Jan 20^th, 2011, 10:49am

I don't really know but I read somewhere it was a poor translation from German(?) presumably means injector loom or similar.

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Jan 25^th, 2011, 4:42pm

Well, things are never as straight forward as they seem.
I'm still having minor issues with the fuel shut off loom that was fitted last week.

Last week.
1) After fitting new loom, fans would come on at full speed for 2 min's while engine was cold then stop,
2) Engine would crank but not start again after a short run, but would start after going cold.

Yesterday & Today.
1) Fans don't come on when cold anymore but come on only at half speed when hot.
2) Engine starting normally after any run.

OBDII is giving just the one code, PO118... which I read to be > 'Engine Coolant Temp Circuit High Input' ???

Can some one point me in the direction of the shut off loom wiring schematics for the 2.3 Manual AND the 2.0 ltr 16v Auto please, if there is any on the site, my sparkie would be most gratefull.

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Highlander on Jan 25^th, 2011, 5:04pm

I would guess you either have a duff temp sensor or maybe more likely a bad connection/wiring fault

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Jan 25^th, 2011, 5:17pm

Temp sensor was working perfectly before this loom problem, I'm putting it down to a wiring fault or wrong connection, hence the request for the schematics.

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by scorpio_man on Jan 25^th, 2011, 6:42pm

hi there

http://cid-eb36f845ea9b8fb6.skydrive.live.com/browse.aspx/WIRING%20DIAGRAMS

hth

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Tompion on Jan 25^th, 2011, 7:03pm

According to the diagrams they both have a white wire going to pin 38 of the PCM via pin 33 of the big connector block 110 plus the earth wire.

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Jan 25^th, 2011, 7:23pm

Thanks for the info guy's, I'll pass it on to my sparkie.
I can work with 240v mains but 12v car wiring goes completely over my head.

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by Tompion on Jan 25^th, 2011, 8:19pm

If you disconnect the temp sender & start the engine the fans come on & you get the PO118 code.
Since yours has had both fans coming on & not coming on when cold, I would think it more likely a bad connection rather than a wrong one.
Presumably your man had to provide an earth for the temp sensor for the gauge as the 2L doesn’t need an earth, so might be worth checking whether he used the same earth & if that connection is OK.

If you have aircon don’t forget depending on the outside temp & how you have the controls set the fans may come on.

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by gozz on Jan 25^th, 2011, 8:33pm

Yes Rodders he needs to earth the other pin on the temp sensor owing to plastic manifold being non conductor,2L earthed via alloy manifold.

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Jan 25^th, 2011, 9:12pm

on 01/25/11 at 20:19:50, Tompion wrote:

If you disconnect the temp sender & start the engine the fans come on & you get the PO118 code.
Since yours has had both fans coming on & not coming on when cold, I would think it more likely a bad connection rather than a wrong one.
Presumably your man had to provide an earth for the temp sensor for the gauge as the 2L doesn’t need an earth, so might be worth checking whether he used the same earth & if that connection is OK.

If you have aircon don’t forget depending on the outside temp & how you have the controls set the fans may come on.

Air con is manual, not cc and is switched off

Temperature sensor for temperature gauge has the earth connected to engine block and gauge is working.

Just been out and tried it again from stone cold..........started first turn of key and fans came on high speed after 10 sec's, then they stopped within 2 min's

Title: Re: Not Firing
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Jan 27^th, 2011, 10:00pm

Another Update
After my sparkie studied the 2.0ltr ultima and 2.3 Ghia manual engine wiring schematics he has come to the conclusion that there are so many differences between the two looms that it would be better for me to purchase the proper loom that corresponds to my chassis number from Trevor Porter @ FPD, I have e-mailed Trevor and It is in stock.

So if anyone is in need of a couple of months old loom for the 2.0ltr 16v ultima at a lot less than the cost of a brand new one send me a PM