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        General >> Problems >> More ABS Problems
        
(Message started by: PJDavis on Dec 31^st, 2010, 12:03pm)

Title: More ABS Problems
Post by PJDavis on Dec 31^st, 2010, 12:03pm

Hello to all

As you may know from another thread, I have managed to get the 'old-'bus' through it's MOT on Tuesday, no problems and the tester was impressed.

However, yesterday in that horrible foggy drizzly weather the ABS light came on. After a journey of about 20 miles, I stopped in at a local shop, it was a little icy and one of the rear wheels did a wee slip as I was reversing. When I came back out from the shop, I put the ignition on and the ABS light remained on even after the car was started, and I drove back to the house, about 5 miles. I took the car out later-on in the evening, but still the light remained on for a journey of around 25 miles. (Incidently, the ABS is definitely physically NOT working)

So this morning I took all the wheels off, I cleaned both rear sensors, they were a bit dirty right enough. I checked the wires under the rear seats and they were ok, I still sprayed them with WD.
I moved onto the front, but in common with most of the Scorpios, my sensors won't come out. I know the rings on all four wheels are fairly clear of rust and I have about 3 months ago managed to pop the big grommet off and clean the front sensors. I cleaned the connections attached to the inner front wings, and the wires to the sensors are fine.
I popped the wires off the control unit, and sprayed WD into both connectors, and blew-out (gently) with some air.
I then took the car out for a short run, but the ABS light remained on. So, back to the house and disconnected the Battery for about 2 hours. Reconnected the battery and straight away took the car out for a good 15 mile run. Stopped after about 12 miles, sat in a lay-by for about 10 minutes with the engine off whilst I reset the radio and the AC controller. Started the car again and the ABS light remained ON all the way home.
Just below are two pics of the controller.
Is it the type of controller that takes the soldering repair?
Are those the two screws, along with two more opposite and lower down, that one removes to take the wee box off, and will anything 'spring-apart' when I take those screws out?? Are they blasted Torx again and if so does someone know the size?

If that's the case it looks fairly easy to disconnect the wires and get those screws undone to get that box off, or am I missing something?

This type of thing has happened before in poor weather, I have cleaned the rear sensors before, and cleaned all the electrical connectors before, and what normally has happened is that the light goes out the next time I go above about 15 mph.

Is it something that might just 'go-away'? I'm kind of out on a limb up here by Inverness, no-one near-by that has the equipment to read my system. I wonder if Dave, "the old bear-footer" has the leads to read the brakes? I'm in no great hurry, because I've got a 13 month MOT just on the car, and I can easily drive without the luxury of ABS. All my Motorcycles have NO ABS!

If anyone can answer any of the questions above, or has any more ideas, then please reply.

I hope you all have a wonderful 'Hogmany'.

Peter

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/PJJDavis123/DSCF2291.jpg

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/PJJDavis123/DSCF2293.jpg

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Dec 31^st, 2010, 1:12pm

Similar story with mine this morning - took it out for a run before SORN'ing. Car last moved on the 18th December - although not very far due to the snow. ABS & TC lights were on for a while but then went out. Parked the car for maybe 5 mins, started the engine and the lights stayed on again for a mile or so then went out. I'm assuming dirty sensors.

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by Simmo on Dec 31^st, 2010, 1:49pm

In answer to your question re removal the answer is yes. Undo the four screws and the unit will come away. You will need the right socket as they can be tight and access is a bit cramped. Tompion will no doubt advise when he sees this post but he changed one over in about five minutes,for Freddieboy, at the last Kent meet. The unit can be soldered. Looking at one of those bolts I'd give it a good soak in WD 40 along with the rest if you do think of removal. Nothing will spring apart. :)

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by PJDavis on Dec 31^st, 2010, 10:15pm

Aye Mike, these cars do seem to have their own wee problems!

Thanks for the info Simmo. Any more tips are VERY welcome.

Peter

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by freddieboy on Jan 1^st, 2011, 6:13am

Hello, Tompion did indeed fit a replacement controller to my ABS pump at the last Scorp Kent meet. It took less than 10 minutes and has been perfect ever since. The man is a legend :D :D :D Happy Hogmanay. Fred

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by Dave2302 on Jan 1^st, 2011, 4:55pm

Peter,

You have a pm, yeah I can read it ;)

TBH theres not much on the road I can't read, spent a fortune on leads and software over the years :)

Cheers Dave

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by Simmo on Jan 1^st, 2011, 5:02pm

Peter. IIRC IF the pins in the controller are in need of re-soldering when scanned it will indicate that the motor is not running. To check this put 12v across the motor pins and if it runs then you are 99% sure that the pins need the 'Tompion' treatment. Essentially the loose pins mean that power is not actually being supplied to the motor hence the fault code. ;)

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by Tompion on Jan 1^st, 2011, 5:59pm

What happened to my post before Fred's?

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by Simmo on Jan 1^st, 2011, 7:03pm

Dave. I've not seen one. I wondered where you were as this is 'your' baby. You will see I suggested you would be answering in my earlier post. Happy New Year, Mike.

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by Tompion on Jan 2^nd, 2011, 1:08am

Strange, there was some general advice about the bolts and a picture of where to drill to get some oil to them if they’re really stuck.

Anyway, check all 3 ABS fuses or test at the multiplug.

The thicker wires (fuses 46 & 47) are permanently live so be careful if testing the voltage at the multiplug (2 pairs of orange/yellow(L) & black(E)). I tend to link the motor direct to them in turn to test motor & power at the same time.

Test the resistance of all 4 sensors back to the ABS multiplug, they should all give a similar reading – click on the the teves 20 link at the bottom of any of my posts for the pinout.

If you take the unit off undo the bolts a little at a time initially else the last one can seize.
Use a decent good fitting E5 torx socket as the bolts chew up easily.

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by PJDavis on Jan 2^nd, 2011, 10:31am

Thanks for all the info. I'll be leaving it just at the moment because the weather is supposed to be closing in again up here. I've got no problems driving a car without ABS, plenty of practice with old rear-drive cars. Dave, 'The old bear-footer' lives about 80 miles from me and he can read ABS codes, so if it continues to be a problem I'll whip it over to him, and if it needs 'The Repair' I'll get one of Electrical guys at work to do the job.

Thanks for replies

Peter

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by Snoopy on Jan 3^rd, 2011, 8:27am

Peter have a good read of THIS (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=admin;action=display;num=1268910490) it is Tompions explanantion of how to fix the ABS problem due to dry solder joints.

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by PJDavis on Jan 3^rd, 2011, 10:29am

Very Interesting. Thanks for that.

Peter

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by PJDavis on Jan 5^th, 2011, 2:42pm

Managed to source a working pump and control unit for a good price. So now I'll piggy-back the 'working' unit onto mine and see if it's ok. If it is I'll repair my unit, if it's not, then I've got a spare that I'll fiddle with and I'll go and see 'The Old Bear-footer' and get him to read the system. I'll keep you's posted.

Peter

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by PJDavis on Jan 9^th, 2011, 11:26am

Just a wee update. I removed the control unit from the pump and unit I sourced, checked the pins are tight, and just generally cleaned it up a bit. After an overnight soak in WD, I removed the control unit from the pump on the car. Did the change-over in about 20 mins total. Unfortunately there is no change, the ABS light comes on with the ignition, and even after driving 20 miles it remains on. Of course, BOTH control units could be faulty, but I now suspect one of the sensors, or the joints between them and the control unit. (Even though I did separate and spray both front joints on inner-wings, and the rear ones under the rear seat)(I also managed to clean both rear sensors, and wipe both rear stator rings through the little hole. But didn't clean the front sensors, only the electrical joints) A trip over to Inverinate to see 'The Old Bear-footer' in the spring is now indicated!

Any other simple tests that I could do to determine which sensor, or other tests to the control unit, I would be pleased to hear about. After all, I am happy that the control unit came off so easily!

Peter

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by Simmo on Jan 9^th, 2011, 1:04pm

Have you done as suggested by Tompion and checked out the sensors by using the link at the bottom of each of his posts?. :)

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by PJDavis on Jan 9^th, 2011, 1:42pm

OK. I can see the picture in the link at the bottom of Tompions posts, this gives a diagram of the multiplug on the back of the controller. I have JUST been out and put a meter across those pins. RR = 1.012. RL = 1.016. FL = 1.014. FR = Budgerygar All. So this I take it means that the Wires to the Front Right, or the front right sensor is goosed?

Peter

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by Tompion on Jan 9^th, 2011, 4:03pm

Separate the plug in the front right wing and test the sensor from there, if that’s OK test the wires back to the controller. If the fault is in the wires from the controller you could check to see if you have an additional plug as mentioned here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/abssystem.htm

“On some vehicles an additional connection is made to the Modulator low down on the drivers side of the engine compartment at the bottom of the McPherson strut turret. This connection is in the road spray and baked by the heat of the manifold and should be the first connection to be checked, particularly if the ABS light shows intermittently - although some owners of later cars have not been able to find this connection.”

Dave

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by PJDavis on Jan 9^th, 2011, 5:00pm

Right. Thanks for that Tomp'. I'll test the sensor from the joint by the inner wing, and if it's ok I'll then test the wires going back to the controller, (I'll put a paper-clip into the two pin-holes 4/3 and test back for continuity) I'll look for that additional connection at the bottom of the turret in the engine compartment. Mines a 2.3, so it won't have heat from a manifold! But all of that will have to wait for a while again now, we've just had a load of snow again, and it's minus 7 degrees C. (I hate this weather)

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by PJDavis on Jan 26^th, 2011, 3:42pm

Up-Date.

Today in freezing weather but dry, I went out to test the continuity. Now, previously when I took the connector off the controller and tested the pins in the diagram all got continuity except the front right, naturally I was steered towards that sensor. So, today I take off the front right wheel, disconnect the connector that's clipped onto the inner wing, and test for continuity from the connector to the sensor, that's OK, 1.06. So, I put a paper-clip into the corresponding wires in the disconnected control unit end, and hey-ho there is no continuity! Just to test my method, I check the continuity of the front-left at the controller end, perfect it is. Now then, thinking there might be a connector low-down on the inside of the front suspension turret, I have a good poke about. I discover that the wires from the inner wing travel forward and without any connector join into a chunk of wiring loom just below the controller. (The look as if they go further forward first) Now in doing this I've disturbed a few wires, not overly so, but never the less pulled a wee bit. Right, I check all pins at the controller for all sensors continuity, Rear-Right = OK. Front-Left = OK. But, Rear-Left now not giving continuity! I check the connector for Rear-Left under rear seat, it's OK and giving continuity from there to sensor, but again not giving continuity at the controller when I put the paper-clip between it's pals. So now Rear-Left and Front-Right are not giving continuity from the connectors to the control unit. BLAST! Although I could have sworn the Rear-Left gave an indication of giving continuity before I 'raxed-around' with the wires whilst looking for that non-existent connector at the front!

I have checked all the fuses associated with the ABS, all are good.

I suspect damaged wires in the chunk of wiring loom where the front-right joins the rest? Could I be right?

One question, do the wires from the sensors go straight to the control unit. If so I could just snip the wires close to the connector at the control unit, and re-wire to the offending sensors, or is that just too simple?

Any suggestions gratefully accepted. I also realise that I'll probably have to get a reading from the 'Old-Bear-Footer', but will the code tell me any more info than I already know?

Peter

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by PJDavis on Jan 26^th, 2011, 4:09pm

The best thought always come from sitting on, 'The Presidents Chair' ;) I wondered if the wires going into the connector at the control unit could be poor? They seem quite hard rather than flexible! Something for another day perhaps, it's now piddling down with rain, cold, and the sitting room Stove has been fired-up.

Peter.

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by Tompion on Jan 26^th, 2011, 4:32pm

I’ve heard of people having trouble with that loom, indeed just to cheer you up someone had it burn out – remember the thick orange/yellow wires are always live.

I think I’ve read on the mailing list they go through a connector inside the car behind the panel in the footwell by the front wing - don’t know which side – however I’ve not managed to find the post so I may be wrong.

I don’t think there is anything else connected on the sensor lines so I can’t see why wiring directly shouldn’t work.

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by PJDavis on Jan 26^th, 2011, 4:39pm

OK. Just gone back outside whilst there is still a wee bit of light left! Checked for continuity in all sensors from the control unit, waggling the wires and all sorts. Back to just the front-right not giving a reading, all others giving 1.04. So back to Sq-1! But I know the sensor on the front right from the connector in the inner-wing is giving a reading of 1.06 down to the sensor. So I wonder if the wires are OK into the back of the connector on the side of the sensor? I think I'll be baring them next and checking continuity from the bared wires back to the controller? I wish I had more time, more light, and better warmer weather!

On a lighter note, my Mk4 Zodiac went through it's 3 yearly check today over in Malta. Apparently it started first turn after sitting idle since October break. advisory on rear pads and discs. It was 18 degrees and sunny over there today....................! I'll be taking a few little things across with me later in the year, like points, plugs, oil and air filters, these items are very expensive in Malta and subject to 42% tax!

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/PJJDavis123/PeterZodiac-1.jpg

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by david_molloy on Jan 26^th, 2011, 9:35pm

See my post... UPDATE - Bizarre and weird starting problems - 24v...
Forgot to include that when both lights on ABS did not work...never tried traction control.
Look like you may also have 'loom' insulation problem.

Title: Re: More ABS Problems
Post by PJDavis on Jan 30^th, 2011, 11:53am

Oh Joy! :D :D

My ABS is working again. I was getting continuity from the connector in the inner wing to the sensor. I wasn't getting continuity from the connector to the control unit plug. So, I bared both of the wires close to the connector and tried for continuity back to the controller, and 'hey-presto' it was there. Took the connector apart on the control-unit side, and the Red/White wire was broken-away from the terminal, although it was holding tight to the connector! I sorted that problem, put the connector back together, and was then getting continuity from the plug at the control unit to ALL the sensors. GREAT! Tidy up all the tools put the wheel back on, clean-up, and take the car out for a quick cold blast................The blasted light was still showing on the dash.....and the ABS was definitely NOT working! Oh well..........last ditch, was to change the control unit back to my original one. I timed myself, 11 mins ;D. Back out for a quick blast again, 50 yards up the road light goes out and stays out! Hoooooooooooray!!

I guess the pump and control unit that I got aren't as perfect as stated!! However, it gives me a spare control unit to fiddle with or put on the car if mine gets the soldering problem, and a spare pump. I'll maybe send the control unit down to Tomp' if he wants it, see what's wrong with it.

Again I'd like to thank those people that could be bothered to reply, all ideas and remarks were gratefully received and followed up on. If nothing else, I learned a lot working away on the ABS.

Peter.