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Title: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Jan 29th, 2011, 7:17pm Hello, my name is Markus. I´am from Berlin, Germany. My english is not so very good, but I try to do my best... I have a great problem. My machine does not start. It blows into the air intake filter. I have tryed it with a new Edis4 module, and with an other Motorcontrole module (pcm?) So I have "blitzed" with an flash lamp. The ignition point is 90° to late. Like so.. Cyl.3 -O- Cyl.1. The "O" stand for the crankshaft pulley. So normaly the first cylinder must stand at the over site. You understand my problem?? May it be the cable loom? The man who had sold the car had build in a new, but I don´t know if it be the right one. May it be the Problem? Now I´ve been the 9 th day on this car, but all is the same.. Greatings from Germany Markus |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Matt on Jan 29th, 2011, 7:50pm Hi markus and welcome Has the cylinder head been taken off at some point? its sounds like it has been timed incorrectly, are you also getting extra pressure in the exhaust? |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Jan 29th, 2011, 8:21pm Hi.. I had looked, but if I have the first cylinder on Ot, then the camshaft is right to the position of the crankshaft. The left cog wheel have an colour line to the left site, and the right cog wheel has an colour line to the right site. So I thinks that it is okay. The machine doesn´t look so, that anybody had repaired somethin in this area! It sounds so, that the machine only blow into the air box. I don´t know,.. but I think, that the loom is inverted at some point!? May it be? I have changed pos. 10 and 12 at the Edis4 module. Then the machine have very bitter misfire. Then it blows into the exhaust! But it is so hard, that the starter have only a little chance to activate the machine. Greats Markus |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Matt on Jan 29th, 2011, 9:35pm It doesnt sound like an ignition problem. To have back pressure into the air box it can not be closing the valves at the correct point, i wonder if the wrong mark on the crank wheel has been used and timed to 10 or so degress before/after tdc. The coil packs are wasted spark and cant really get mixed up, the coil and joining ht lead both fire together, the wiring loom plugs should also give you the postion of the coils. Can you turn the engine over by hand? You should feel a large resistance as each cylinder comes up on its compression stroke, if its fairly easy to turn the engine over by hand a full 360 your valves are not closing at the correct point Matt :) |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Jan 29th, 2011, 10:47pm I had made an Compression Test. The first Cylinder have 11,5 Bar, the second and the third Cylinder 13 Bar, and ther fourth cylinder do it with 12Bar. So I think that the Compression is okay, or? Hmm... I don´t know with this car. It is the biggest Problem that I ever have in my life with cars.. >:( The only thing that could be is that the cog for the crankshaft sensor is wrong!? It´s the only plausible thing that I mean.. But exactly 90°!? I don´t know... I have a flash exactly at 90° to late. The only thing that is new on the loom is the loom to the ignition coil, fuel injector, and to the camshaft sensor. I thought that there is a wrong one, or the big connector is from the bottom side different. So that the signal from the Edis Modul comes later.. Greats.. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by PJDavis on Jan 29th, 2011, 10:48pm Is It 180 Degrees out? Someone has timed no 1 as no 4? |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Jan 29th, 2011, 11:16pm on 01/29/11 at 22:48:30, PJDavis wrote:
hmm, the flash from the 3 rd cylinder gives an light at 180° later then the first cylinder. So also 90° to late.. I dont know why.. exactly 90° later than the Ot (tdc) From the coilack on the fourth cylinder a cable goes to the first. Thats right,.. From the second cylinder with the coilpack the cable goes to the third. Thats also right.. You mean that? My english is not so good.. Its very nice, that i became so much answers between many time!! Thank you!! :) |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Mike H on Jan 30th, 2011, 1:52pm Only time I had pressure blowing back through the intake was because a rocker had broken. So exhaust valve not opening. So it does sound like a valve timing error problem, e.g. exhausts opening late? |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by gozz on Jan 30th, 2011, 3:01pm Markus. Did you buy the car in that condition,or was it OK and has gone like that ?I am sure that you know that the firing stroke is when the piston is at the top and both valve lifters are on the back of the cam,both valves being fully closed. GOZZ. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Jan 30th, 2011, 4:58pm Hey.. i have bought the car in this condition. The Ford dealer didn´t found the error they had only looked the pats and failure memory. And there was everything okay. There is nothing broken at the camshaft, everything is okay in this area. The Problem must be in the loom or on the crankshaft. The flash comes to late. If it would come at the right time, not 90° to late, then the vale would be on the right position. The Flash comes to late. Like so O- The line must be on the upper side, normally. - For the First cylinder. If I flash the 3rd cylinder, then is the flash at theese position -O Normally it must be on the under side. It would be okay if the flash for the first cylinder would come so: \ O But the flash comes so : O- You know what I mean? The only thing that I can imagine is, that the crankshaft position cog stands fail. May it be if someone had made a mistake at theese position? It looks not so, that anybody had worked at these position, but I don´t know it. From the first to the third cylinder the flash light comes 180° that is okay. But why does all the flashes comes 90° to late?? It bring sleepless nights to me >:( I´m at the end in this moment, but I will not sale the car and give up.. Greats Markus |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Jan 30th, 2011, 5:31pm .. something else. When I start the car, an the firing goes into the air intkake then I see no reaktion on the rev counter. When I connect an Motor control modul from an 98 Scorpio 2,3, then the speed indicator works! May it be the problem, that anythin is wrong at the loom? |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by ro284 on Jan 30th, 2011, 6:02pm Moppy, Has the car ever driven properly since you bought it? did you drive it from the Ford suppliers? do you have a guarantee? Have you got the top off the engine? can you see the camshafts? can you see the cam timing chain? are there any gold coloured marker links on the timing chain? by the way the firing order is 1-3-4-2. pistons 2&3 are at TDC at the same time, also 1&4 at TDC same time, i have just replaced the head on my 2-3 also 98, and had many problems with camshart timing. which may be the problem. anyone known a tensioner fail and chain to slip round the Crank sprocket? Also i think the plugs on the coil leads are the same as the camshaft sensor. but the wires to the front coil have a ribbed protector lead on, just a few thoughts. Good luck Bob |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Jan 30th, 2011, 6:37pm Hey, no, I have bought the car with this Problem from a private person. No guarantee, because it was a nice price. I have seen the camshafts. When I turn the first cylinder to TDC, then the fourth cylinder is also on the TDC. When I look then to the camshaft, then I see a coloured marker on the left side to the left side, and on the right side to the right side. Thats what I mean.. everything there looks good, but the flash comes to late. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by ro284 on Jan 30th, 2011, 7:07pm When i did my engine, there was no mark on the crankshaft pulley, so i got piston 1 and 4 to TDC then made my own mark on top of the pulley, when no 1 is at TDC the timing marks on the cam sprockets. should be to the outside of the cam sprockets, then rotate crankshaft fully clockwise to TDC on no 4, and the marks on the cam sprockets should be pointing inwards to each other and level with the heads straight edge, to confirm that the valve timing is correct for no 1, there is a pdf file on here which states first check TDC ON NO 2 This is not correct and impossible to do! I am not suggesting your engine has been timed wrongly but i mention this because you can confirm that valve timing is ok before going any further, as you have already got the top off! search for links in my previous post =valve timing 2-3 16 v == a few days ago for some pictures of the timing marks. Bob |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Jan 30th, 2011, 8:27pm okay,.. I know what you mean. But we have looked for that, and everything was okay. And if it wouldn´t be so, then the flash must even so come to the right time, or? I think that the flash comes 90° to late, so the cylinder will go to the under site with the alloy and then comes the flash. The crankshaft mark is also okay, if i turn the machine to tdc. But if I flash the cylinder, then the crankshaft mark stand to the right site, not to the up site. There was a mark on the crankshaft pulley, but I have also made an own one with chalk. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by ro284 on Jan 30th, 2011, 8:53pm Question for anybody please, does the Camshaft sensor dictate when any particular plug fires? i havent thought about this, so just wondered what the sensor does? and if it could relate to this problem? |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by PJDavis on Jan 30th, 2011, 9:24pm Maybe NOT relevant....................but many years ago I remember re-boring and re-building a Triumph Mk1 2.5Pi. When putting the the crankshaft sprocket back on it could go on either way, but was about 5 degrees out when flipped. This meant it was about 10 degrees out in it's new position, and although the car started an ran, it was as rough as pig-nuts! Did someone put all those pulley back on in the right position? Peter |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Jan 30th, 2011, 9:44pm i hope that I understand what it means.. You mean that someone has put on the crankshaft pulley wrong? Hmm, if I turnd cylinder 1 on tdc then my mark is right. It shows to the up side. But I don´t know if someone had made an mistake at the fly wheel! It looks not so that anyone was at the automatik, but I don´t know it! May it be that there is the failure?? |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Matt on Jan 30th, 2011, 10:00pm how many marks are on your crank pulley? could you take a photo for us? they crank pulleys are normally key located |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by PJDavis on Jan 30th, 2011, 10:19pm Look at these two pictures, there is a lot to get right with all these sprockets. http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/PJJDavis123/DSCF2287.jpg http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/PJJDavis123/DSCF2272.jpg |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Jan 30th, 2011, 10:23pm I mean the crankshaft pulley that is on the fan belt. Not in the machine. On crankshaft pulley by the fan belt there are three points side by side. The middle of theese stand on the up side when cylinder 1 is at the tdc. There I have also made my mark to see it better with the flash light. I can make a picture if you dot know what I mean. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by gozz on Jan 30th, 2011, 10:38pm The crank pulley doesn't really need any marks because we don't use timing lights any more,PJD is referring to the chain sprocket I think,TDC is easily found by piston position.The crank position sensor 'sees' a multi toothed plate which is bolted to the rear crankshaft web by three fixings which are not equidistant,therefore it cannot be wrongly fitted. GOZZ. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Tompion on Jan 31st, 2011, 1:12am on 01/30/11 at 20:53:29, ro284 wrote:
The camshaft sensor is for the injectors, but you could try disconnecting it in case there’s a problem with it as the engine will run & drive OK with it disconnected. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Jan 31st, 2011, 10:53am on 01/30/11 at 22:38:39, gozz wrote:
Okay,.. then I know, that there isn´t the failure. But when I make a mark to the crankshaft pulley at TDC, then the flash must come there or before.. When I put the machine on TDC, then the Camshaft is also on tdc so the two stand on my mark at the crankshaft pulley. But now I see the two pictures.. My camshaft marks are like this on the second picture. But from where ist the first picture? Is this this "down site" are there more chains then one? I think that I must look for it one time. It may be, that there ist the failure.. although then the tdc attitude wouldn´t looks okay. Tomorrow I drive to the car and make pictures when the machine is on Tdc. I would make pictures about the camshaft. When I disconnect the camshaft connector, then the machine do the self! Markus |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by ro284 on Jan 31st, 2011, 11:38am Marcus, The only chain that applies to the valve timing chain in the first picture from PJ it is the chain you can just see with the 2 gold links to the right and just above the Crankshaft bolt hole in the center, the other chain you see is for something else. in the second picture the sprockets/cams themselves are where they should be, with the marks pointing out for TDC on no 1 cylinder, but the 2 sets of double gold chain links should be either side of the marks on the cam sprockets. no doubt if you could rotate the engine in the picture that is where they would return to, with the single gold link (shown in the middle pic 2 )would then be across the single mark you can see on the Crankshaft sprocket. unless as mine did the chain slipped round the sprocket and no gold links at all. do the gold links on yours (if you have them )appear to be one link either side of both sets of timing marks on the cam sprockets at the same time, when you rotate the engine. it should not be necessary to take the lower timing cover off, (but it is good to see this picture,)as it is possible to re-set the valve timing if neccesary just with access to the cam sprockets, if that is what the problem is! but you would need a new tensioner! so rotate engine and see where the gold links are first, (would be my first step to confirm the problem is not valve timing) |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 1st, 2011, 9:19pm okay,.. my news.. I have looked for all what have to do with the chain. There is everything okay. The mechanik who is the owner of the repair shop where my scorpio stands have also looket above the chain and the camshaft position. He also said, that there is everything good. A friend of him is an Ford mechanik. He looked above the car and have seen something failure. In the loom where the fuel injectors sit are 2 Brown and 2 brown red cable soldered. Thats not so competent he says. So tomorrow I will check the complete loom from the control module to the edis module and so on.. The Ford mechanik think that there is the failure.. If I find the problem, then I will post it here at the first. So much people who try to help me.. :) And that although me english is not so good.. Very nice!!! Greats.. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Tompion on Feb 2nd, 2011, 12:28am Damage to that loom (Fuel Cut-off Loom) is common on the 2.3, see here: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/dohcloom.htm If you need the wiring diagrams look here: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=admin;action=display;num=1268901956 Just had a look at an old loom (2.3 auto) & there appear to be 2 lots of joined wires (originally a pressure splice) in the black box over the injectors. 1 with 6 wires (injectors & idle speed control) & the one you have which on mine & in the diagram is 2 brown, 1 brown/white, 1 brown/red. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Jonnycab on Feb 2nd, 2011, 2:30am Loom damage can also occur on the section that goes between the engine & inlet manifold into the manifold sensors & down to the crankshaft & oil pressure sensors. Heres a pic of the above part of the loom that I removed from a friends 2.3 that was mis-behaving badly. I replaced it with a new loom & all was well again. http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i101/jonnycab/P6020463.jpg P.S.... the coil pack part of the loom was bad also :) |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 2nd, 2011, 10:24am Thank you! Today I will look for it. The loom in the black box over the injectors are a new one. It goes to the main connector. I think, that there is the failure.. And in the black box are two brown red cable and two brown cable who are together soldered. That looks not so professionell.. If I have checked this, then I go to from the main connector to the pcm.. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 3rd, 2011, 8:48pm hey,.. nothing new, I can not work on the car before monday.. :'( But I have an other idea.. What about the camshaft and the crankshaft sensors. When they are crossed in the big connector, then I would have 90° after tdc.. Or am I on the full wrong way? I think about that, while on the photo I see the mark on the camshaft. I also wanna pay two new coil packs, maybe there is also a problem.. Does anyone need an Motor control module from an 2,3 manuel?? I have it, but I don´t need it... Greats.. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 8th, 2011, 4:29pm So,.. some little news. I have cut cable 2 and 4 from the Edis module. This two cables are going to the motor control module. When I do that, then the machine will run. I hear that it is short before to run. Sometimes I hear an backfire to the exhaust. But the Problem of this test is, that the spark plug from cylinder 1 and 3 are dry then. Maybe it is the motor control module!? I had put one time a module from an 2,3l automatik ´1998. Maybe that was the failure.. I think, that I do my work for one week. If I do not find the failure in that week, than I must think about to sell the car. But I will not sell it, I will drive it :'( Greats |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 9th, 2011, 5:39am Hi Moppi, since you mention EDIS4 I conclude it is an autobox, right? Did you mean you disconnect pin 2 and 4 (IDM & SAWPW) off the EDIS and then it starts & runs? If so it follows that both essential controlsignals, needed for proper dynamic operation, confuse the EEC-V and stop it from running! That could point to wrong mechanical timing. Read here http://www.dainst.com/info/edis/EDIS_system_diagram.png and here: http://rockledge.home.comcast.net/~rockledge/RangerPictureGallery/DIS_EDIS.htm especially last paragraph. Do take care to always disconnect the battery when you work on EDIS/EEC-V/Coilpacks. Since the INJectors are always on + 12V NOT disconnecting the battery will cause the EEC-V to freeze/hang for 24 hours. You might have solved the problem but the EEC-V will not function and makes you draw a wrong conclusion and struggle on... happened to me. HTH Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 9th, 2011, 10:19am Hi Ray, yes it´s an Scorpio with automatic transmission. When I cut cable 2 and cable 4, then the machine do not run! But it themed so, that it is short before to run. Then there is no backfire into the air intake. I have only 2 times backfire when the cables are cut on the edis. And these 2 backfires are gone to the exhaust. So it is better when the signal from the edis do not go to the motor control module. I think that the failure could be in the motor control module, or in the loom from the big connector to the motor control module. The cables there looks good! But i think that I must take a measure an check all the cables. The mechanikal timing from the camshaft to the crankshaft is right! Greats |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 9th, 2011, 8:37pm So,.. some little news. I have cut cable 2 and 4 from the Edis module. This two cables are going to the motor control module. When I do that, then the machine will run. I hear that it is short before to run. Sometimes I hear an backfire to the exhaust. Daniel, What are you trying to tell us? When you cut 2 & 4 from the EDIS does it run or not? Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 10th, 2011, 9:42am Hey,.. No it does not run! It is not so easy to explain it in english.. Ibut I try it.. With the complete cables on the Edis the machine do a lot of backfire into the Air intake. When I cut 2 & 4 then the machine doesn´t also start. But then there are no backfires into the air intake. And also the starter turning in normal speed. but in midstream it turns faster and that looks like than the machine is short before to run. I hope that it is better to understand. Markus |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 10th, 2011, 11:27am Markus, 1) why did you ever decide to disconnect pin 2 & 4 from the EDIS? You must have had a reason? Were they damaged perhaps? What purpose? (It is a certain method of stopping a good Cossie) 2) What loom was replaced by the vendor? a) the one from the 2 cubic connectors under the ABS to the Injectors and autobox? OR b) the one running from the EEC-V under the glovebox through the big rubber grommet, under the exhaustshield under the ABS to the 2 cubic connectors + all 4 ABS sensors? Curious, Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 10th, 2011, 3:53pm Hi Ray, a member from an german forum means that I can do that. When I do it, then the Edis makes an own firing without the pcm. That´s why I had do that. The seller had changed the loom from the one cubic connector to the injectors, sparkplugs, camshaftsensor. - that is the little under the valve cover to the cubic connector. Today I had connect all cables to the Edis again. But now the machine doesn´t fire into the air intake. It don´t run, but the same procedure that it themed that the machine will run.. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 10th, 2011, 4:19pm Hi Markus, yes in principle the EDIS can run the engine w/o the PCM - BUT in Cossie the EEC-V will NOt fire the injectors when it does not receive either PIP or IDM signal. Read my second article in my previous post; last paragraph. The replaced loom is the infamous "fuel cut-off-loom" (silly name, probably wrongly translated 20 years ago in Köln; Benzineinspritzkabelabschnitt oder so was) which also travels all the way down to the autobox solenoids. It has a bad reputation of becoming brittle and making strands touch and go crazy. Since you have an unusual trouble you should first of all eliminate causes IMHO. Long shot: could the 2 sets of plugcables be mixed-up? Also please measure Ohms on the coilpack: primary should be about 0,5 - 1 Ohms, secundary c. 15.000 (15k)Ohms Did you perhaps contact forum members nobbel near Bremen and Daniel_Duese near Hamburg for assistance? Curious, Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 10th, 2011, 9:21pm hi,.. Nobbel has wright something about the loom. From Daniel_Duese I have read something in other post´s about problems.. It is not a cossi! It is an 4 cyl. 2,3l 16V. The plugcables cant´t get mixed up. 1 & 4 and 3 & 4. From the large of the cables it istn´t possible. And I have changed them. Than the missfire is harder. Today I have looked for the injektors. When I bounce the loom at the undersite, then all the injektors work. So I think that there is the failure... Tomorrow I will test all the cables from the connector to the motor control module. Thank You!! Your German was well ! Greats from Berlin Markus |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 10th, 2011, 9:32pm Hi Markus, ich lebte und arbeitetete zig Jahre in Düsseldorf, Aachen, München. So, daher. Sorry about the Cossie mix up. 2.3 it is, yes. Your observation about the loom over the injectors sounds familiar. I am surprised that loom should be the cause as you said the vendor had replaced that loom, did he not? Did he do a bad job? Old loom, brittle isolation, loose wires, strands, touching? Soldered splices? There is an article on the site called "fault of the loom". Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 11th, 2011, 8:33am ah,.. okay.. Yes he had replaced it. It looks like a new one. All the cables aren´t broken or so. But The loom under the connector also looks good. I have seen an connector at the underside near the crankshaft sensor. You can see it here at picture number 5. http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/dohcloom.htm Can you tell me for what it is? It is not connected at my scorpio! It has only one cable, black/green.. So now I will drive to the garage and work on the car. I hope that it works today :) But I think that it is a day more where nothing happens.. If I don´t become the machine to work up to tomorrow, then I will give the car to another mechanikan. Next week I must work and have no time to work on the car. So I think that it would be very expensive.. I´m afraid that you couldn´t find good peoples for the scorpio in berlin. All the mechanican from Ford in Berlin have no ideas about the scorpio. And the most people who have anticipation are here in this forum! I think that it would be easyer for all with the same speech, but I think that it also works so :) It is very nice to become so much help!! Greats |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by gozz on Feb 11th, 2011, 8:51am Moppi. Is the wire for the oil pressure light ? that has only one wire. Nobody at British garages knows anything about Scorpios either,so you are not alone ;D GOZZ. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 11th, 2011, 9:34am Ah, okay,.. then I will look where I must connect it. Okay, so where are the real scorpio mechanican live?? Are they all crazy now because they also have to much problems with the car :) But okay, the most interest things are here on this page. So all the scorpio driver can repair the most things alone.. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 11th, 2011, 12:34pm on 01/31/11 at 10:53:57, Moppi wrote:
Hi Markus, can you tell us exactly what you are observing here? Not clear but it may be a clue. Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Tompion on Feb 11th, 2011, 12:35pm on 02/01/11 at 21:19:12, Moppi wrote:
You said earlier that these wires were soldered. Originally they are a pressure spliced, so it may not be a new loom. You may have damage anywhere in that loom. Also as I said earlier the colours you give for that splice do not match my loom or the diagrams, check they are connecting the correct components. Note Cosray was talking about the Cossie loom earlier. There are no autobox connections on the 2.3 Fuel Cut-off Loom so it is easier to remove if you need to. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 11th, 2011, 12:44pm Hi Markus, looking back you seem to have have eliminated wrong mechanical timing, right? No slipped chains on sprockets etc. All valves lifting coorectly in sync with the piston movements, right? However, suddenly I rmembered this article on our forum. Have you read it? It drove all mechanics nuts! Steve, justifiably called a Master Technician, had solved a problem that had defeated Ford Technical and the Field Engineer. He had achieved this by going back to first principles, engineering his own indicator device to check the valve timing and then worked a solution which proved his theory. Neither was this the first time he had proved his worth - Peter S reported some time ago that his Scorpio poor running problem had been sorted by Steve, who had found a loom problem and repaired it economically. This same problem has completely defeated other Main Dealers . http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/idleprob.htm Let me know if this is a possible clue. HTH Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 11th, 2011, 12:51pm on 02/11/11 at 12:35:15, Tompion wrote:
1) Tompion, that's interesting. How's the autobox connected on the 2.3 then? 2) Also I noticed from the diagrams I studied that the ignition system on 2.3 manual is different from an automatic 2.3 Apparently the manual 2.3 has no EDIS and the coils are fired from the ports of the EEC-V directly. That could point to a wrong loom being fitted over the head. That would explain why disconnecting pins 2 & 4 on the EDIS gives a positive effect (where you would expect otherwise) What do you make of this train of thought? Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Tompion on Feb 11th, 2011, 1:37pm Hi Ray, 1/ Fortunately I don’t know how it connects :) (not had to deal with it), I just know the only connections when I changed mine were for the engine sensors (except MAF, oxygen, baro pressure – possibly others, but all I can think of at the moment) 2/ Certainly sounds a possibility. Your finding from the diagrams possibly explains why Rodders couldn’t get an auto loom to work on his manual: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1293650205;start= (although to add to the confusion pre 03/96 2.0litre manuals used edis) His symptoms weren’t the same, but then he was going the other way auto loom onto a manual car. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Tompion on Feb 11th, 2011, 2:34pm Check again if you do have 2 Brown/Red wires in the soldered splice. The diagrams show brown/red (pin 27 in the big connector) and a Brown/White (air temperature sensor). I say this because the crankshaft sensor also has a Brown/Red wire (pin 20 in the big connector), make sure that isn’t one of the wires in the solder joint. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 11th, 2011, 2:41pm Hey,.. today I have looked the pins from the Edis to the sparkplugs. The colours are right, and when I measuring with the ring function it is right. I have measure ohm at the Sparkplugs. The sparkplug on cyl. 4 has 8 Ohm and the sparkplug on cyl. 2 has also 8 Ohm. That´s when they are disconected. So the machine also won´t start but doesn´t make missfire into the air intake. Then I have found a new Problem. the motor doesn´t have minus. So I have correct it, and then the machine do the same problem as I have bought it. Missfire into the Airbox.. >:( I don´t know if it is the right loom. I think so, because the pins to the connector looks right. And the brown /brown-red cables are pressed together, that looks originally. I´am not the best man in point of electrik. I hate it.. Perhabs then the Scorpio isn´t the right car for me :-/ but I like the car... So at Monday I give it to a friend of a friend. He is Master of car electrik and want to look for my car. He says that he think, that he becomes to work the machine. I hope... He will measure all cables. For that I must pay 50€. I think that´s fair and also cheap. And if the machine runs after he had found the Problam, then I must pay also 50€. So sadly I have to give up... I will write the news here, perhabs I can help some one.. once more thank you for all efforts! Markus |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 11th, 2011, 3:22pm Moppi, do not give up yet: your symptoms may be pointing to a wrong loom over the head: for a manual 2.3 I have just studied and compared both schematics. There are main differences between the wiring in the engine compartment between 2.3 manual and auto, certainly because of the EDIS (auto) /non-EDIS (manual) control. Also therefore looms and PCMs differ. Seen from the head towards the C110 cubic connector the CRANKshaft Position sensor wires into pins 20 & 15 in C110 for both auto and manual. After C110 the Auto version takes the 2 wires into the EDIS4 pins 5 & 6; the manual 2 wires run straight to the PCM C401 pins 22 7& 21. So a manual loom would not matter for the Crankshaft Position sensor BUT The CAMshaft Position sensor for 2.3 Auto wires to pin 31 & 23; the manual version wires to pin 31 & 26 in C110. Also of course seen from C110 to PCM there is a different engine compartment loom as the Auto PCM has a connector C401 and the manaul PCM a connector C402 with some pins identical, some totally differing pinout for all 108 pins. At this point I assume that your vendor may have had a bad "fuel-cut-off-loom" and wrongly replaced it with a MANUAL version. It cannot have ever properly run since, so he gave up and sold it. That would explain the other/FORD techies not finding the fault. Moreover if, as you say, PCMs were exchanged... then some very basic problems were introduced. You might check P/Ns of the PCMs at a FORD dealer to eliminate the chance of trying to operate a wrong PCM... with everything going crazy. Is there a way to contact your vendor and make sure? Your Elektriker may have positive result in rewiring the loomplug going into C110 and just change wire from pin 26 into 23 for test. HTH Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 11th, 2011, 4:18pm okay,.. that means that I have to cross 26 into 23 in the connector to the fuel cut off loom? Then I will look for it at monday, and if it is not so, then the electrican must look about the complete loom. The pcm is the original. There are three rivet(?) and there are not bored. The other Pcm was one of an 98´2,3 automatic. But when I do that at the connector, then the anti-theft device flashes. Thats also when I take the key from that pcm. So I will change 26 & 23 at the connector and hope that that is the failure.. Thank you.. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 11th, 2011, 4:48pm Hi Markus, beware of being too optimistical... IF it is the wrong loom you may have MORE wrong contacts causing malfunctions. Have your Elektriker study both .pdfs for the 2.3 manual and auto very critical and make comparisons. Here http://cid-eb36f845ea9b8fb6.office.live.com/self.aspx/WIRING%20DIAGRAMS/ENGINE%20CONTROL%202-3L%2016V%20EFI%20%5E5MANUAL%5E6%20IGNITION.pdf and here http://cid-eb36f845ea9b8fb6.office.live.com/self.aspx/WIRING%20DIAGRAMS/ENGINE%20CONTROL%202-3L%2016V%20EFI%20%5E5AUTO%5E6%20IGNITION.pdf Printout the relevant sections and have him measure and compare. Keep us posted on your progress! HTH Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Feb 11th, 2011, 5:50pm Cosray and Moppi I had similar problems with my car regarding the loom. I fitted a brand new loom from a 2.0ltr 16v Ultima Auto to a 2.3 Ghia x Manual. I changed the two connections as advised ( Temp sender and air intake) but still the loom confused the ECU and the car still refuses to run correctly. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 11th, 2011, 6:11pm Okay,.. And then you have bought another new one, or did you adjust the loom of the 2,0l auto to the 2,3 manual? the biggest problem is, that I don´t know what loom there is contained. But I think & hope that the electric mechanik should know to build a new loom. When he must do that. He said, that he measure the complete loom from the fuel cut off loom to the Pcm. Then he must find the failure and can clean it. The seller of this car was a little bit crazy. Not all what he had said to me was true. It is not so effective to talk with him cause he say very curious things. If you ask him something about the loom or so, then he talk about 10 minutes about the weather, but nothing about the loom. - So he is really crazy.. But until tuesday he can´t work on my car, so I have time to look for these two pins at Monday. If he had find a failure, or maybe I find it at monday, than you´re one of the first, who becomes the answer :) Greats |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Feb 11th, 2011, 7:45pm I have done nothing to fix. I am buying a new loom Specific for the 2.3 Ghia x Manual. But first I have to save some phennigs. ;) |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 11th, 2011, 8:40pm on 02/11/11 at 17:50:28, lesterlad aka Rodders wrote:
Rodders - when you say 2.3 Ghia x Manual you must mean the Mark II right? Until 1994? That is electronically NOT compatible although the 2.0 16v kept the "old" EEC-IV instead of an EEC-V and possibly a few other components. It certainly was not (designed to be) backward compatible, same as Windows 7 wil not run on a Window 3.11 machine or likewise USB 3.0 on USB 1.0 hub. Just think of its incompatible software-versions and functionality. It will not run by swapping hardware, as shown in your case. HTH Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Feb 11th, 2011, 9:18pm on 02/11/11 at 20:40:15, Cosray wrote:
No, It's 1996 Scorpio Ultima shape but no Cruise control, no Climate Control, and not so many toys. http://img165.imageshack.us/img165/4152/newtrailer009bp0.jpg |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 11th, 2011, 9:28pm Rodders, Confusing when you say 2.3 Ghia x Manual meaning Scorpio Ultima ... but still incompatible with 2.0 16v I am afraid... different animals electronically, as I explained. Unless I am wrong about the UK versions - but the one is controlled by EEC-IV and the others by EEC-V. HTH Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Feb 11th, 2011, 10:19pm on 02/11/11 at 21:28:48, Cosray wrote:
As you know the Scorpio was produced with different trim levels and various engine sizes Scorpio Ultima Scorpio Ghia x .....................my model Scorpio Executive As far as I'm aware mine is controlled by by EEC-V Maybe someone more technically minded than me could clarify. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Tekno on Feb 11th, 2011, 10:21pm 2.0 16v and 2.3 are both EEC-V, but it's VERY bad idea to switch auto or manual looms or pcm's. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 11th, 2011, 10:47pm on 02/11/11 at 22:21:47, Tekno wrote:
of course,.. but it may be, that the previous owner had do it ??? Also my Ford dealer means, that the fuel cut off loom isn´t to get.. So if it isn´t the right then I have no alternative as to build it by my self. And so it is better if it make someone who have a anticipation from electric.. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Feb 11th, 2011, 11:11pm on 02/11/11 at 22:47:03, Moppi wrote:
They are available here in the UK at Ford parts uk, not sure if they ship to Europe though. http://www.fordpartsuk.com/shop/scorpio_fuel_shut_off_loom_1051.htm Edit: Yes they ship worldwide |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 13th, 2011, 3:56pm Markus, Bitte senden Sie mir eine Email; hab' vielleicht 'ne Alternative. Einfach klicken auf meiner Name links. Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 14th, 2011, 2:55pm Hey,.. I have sent an email.. Today I had no time for the car. :'( I´ll see that I can work tomorrow on the car.. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by nobbel on Feb 15th, 2011, 7:45am Hi Moppi, wouldn't be a new loom (200 €) the best solution? You are wasting money with trying this and that. If nobody has worked at the autobox and played with the sensors and EDIS4 is ok, the problem must be the loom. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 15th, 2011, 7:29pm yes, of course would it be the best thing! But if it is not the loom, and so the man who had sold the car to me had a tissue of lies and worked at the Autobox, then I have also payed 200€ for nothing.. So I think its better that the man who is car electric master looks for the car. He want to have 50€ to look for the complete motor loom and to the loom to the Motorcontrol module. And if the car runs, then I have to pay further 50€. The biggest problem is, that I must work from 7 o clock in the morning to 18 o clock in the evening. So my time is very bad, and I can do nothing at the car in this moment. I hate it... So I must look how to become the car to the other garage.. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 24th, 2011, 4:00pm Hey,.. a long time ago, but I have not give up :) So the car is now here at my home. I have taken the fuel cut off loom out, to check the pins. But now I have a question.. Ray said, that the pins in the connector are different. The camshaft sensor on a manuel connector takes the pins 31 & 26. The automatik takes the pins 31 & 23. In my connector the camshaft sensor goes to pin 31 & 26. But in my documents it is right ??? In my documents stands that the manuel and the automatic takes the same pins. 31 & 26. Is this right, or must I convert the connector? I have read that manuel and automatic takes the same fuel cut off loom, is it so?? There is a white sticker on my loom with the number : 96xm-9h589 CC Is this the right loom for an 2,3l 16V Automatic 09/1996? by the way much thanks to Ray for his Email.. Perhabs it was the help, that I need. Markus |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 24th, 2011, 4:46pm Hi Markus good that you are moving on and have your toy near your bedside ;-) If you name us your VINcode I - or Forum-mates - may have a peek in the FORD MiniCat for reference. That should give us a clue wether it is the correct loom. Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 24th, 2011, 5:19pm yes of course,.. when I sleep and have an idea, then I can go to the car.. also at night ;) I think, that you mean this number,.. WFONXXGAGNTL08309 That is the car ident nr. I see now, that the car ist first approval 15.10.1996. So does anyone know if the loom is right?? Markus |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Tompion on Feb 24th, 2011, 7:41pm If you look at this thread: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Advice;action=display;num=1297963223 The pin layout of the top picture is the same as my old loom from my ‘97 2.3 auto (the picture with 3 pins in the top & bottom rows). The label on mine is almost the same except it ends with CB. I’ll check the cam sensor pins with a meter later. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 24th, 2011, 7:44pm Moppi, your VIN returns this (I must type all this by hand) so MAJOR details: 4 DOOR ESTATE DOHC 2.3 (145PS) BUILT 18-09-1996 KÖLN A4LD (also die alte Automatik, nicht A4LDE) LHD 2WD RAVEN INT TOURMALLARD GREEN WITH AIRCO MINOR DETAILS (selection) WITH SECURITY PACK = PATS GLOBAL CLOSING ELEC FRONT REAR WINDOWS ELEC REAR REAR WINDOWS REVERSE PROX SENSOR ?! NO SPEED SENSITIVE STEERING 2 AIRBAGS STEERING WHEEL WOOD/LEATHER 2 HEATED SEATS HEADLAMP WASHER ?! REAR WINDOW WASHER/WIPER 12 SPOKE 225/50VR16 SILVER RECARO FRONT SEAT DOOR DEAD LCKS & REMOTE NO SLIP DIFF NIVOMAT SHOCK ABS FOG LAMPS Stimmt das alles genau? Pls confirm so I can dive in deeper HTH Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 24th, 2011, 8:02pm Yes,.. thats my car ;) Wow,.. all that only with my Vin ??? Cool... :D |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 24th, 2011, 8:36pm The "wiring ass'y main LHD GHIA w manual headlamp levelling" has FINIS 95GG 14401 CC from 15-10-1994 thru 15-01-1997 and costs € 302 new. I will try and find the loomnummber you ahve omn the car now. HTH Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 24th, 2011, 8:44pm There is a white sticker on my loom with the number : 96xm-9h589 CC This number cannot be found. Reading error? It does not look consistent with the other codes. 96XM**** broadly points to Granada-Scorpio 1992-1994... Pls double-check with a good lamp or clean the label. Do you see any other labels on this loom? Near the coilpack? Towards the autobox? HTH Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Tompion on Feb 24th, 2011, 9:18pm on 02/24/11 at 20:44:12, Cosray wrote:
As mentioned above the number on my old loom is similar: 96xm-9h589 CB |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 24th, 2011, 9:39pm ... unfortunately that PN does not show up in my Ford Minicat. No 96XM** anywhere. Mind having a look for a second label? Coilpack area? Headlamp levelling area? It stretches over various areas of the engine compartment and components. Label might even sit near the cubic connectors C100 + 110 under the ABS for all I know. These looms are known to have more than one on them as some of them are subassemblies supplied by various manufacturers. One label is the primary label though. Curious, Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Tompion on Feb 24th, 2011, 10:02pm I have another old loom that has the same number both on a big ford label. There is another number on both but they differ so may be more like a serial no, EE00-E-10609096-000. I can’t find a number on the replacement on the car but the finis was 1063559. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Tompion on Feb 24th, 2011, 11:03pm on 02/24/11 at 16:00:32, Moppi wrote:
Managed to test my old loom (bit of a job as it's in such a state) & it appears to be pins 31 & 26. Pin 23 isn't used I think it's a mistake on the wiring diagram (not the first mistake I've seen). |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Tompion on Feb 25th, 2011, 3:06am If you Google the part no you’ll find more on German sites, this one appears to say the suffix is a date code: http://www.ford-forum.de/showthread.php?t=78265 CB = 05/96 to 12/97 CC = 12/97 to 07/98 |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 25th, 2011, 9:36am i have read the same, so my loom is an cc. That means, that the loom is newer as the car. But are there differents??? There is another number. The label looks like a new one, so there is no read failure. This is the other number : eeoo-e-10750046-000 I dont give up :) |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 26th, 2011, 4:14pm My connector has the same pins like the first photo. But my car is an automatic, has clima automatic and cruise control. So is there the failure?? Do I need the connector from the second picture from an 2,0 l ? Or is it normal, because the 2,3l has the edis module ??? Hmm,.. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Feb 26th, 2011, 5:20pm on 02/26/11 at 16:14:08, Moppi wrote:
Moppi.... (2nd picture connector from the 2.0ltr 16v) That car also had the Edis module. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 26th, 2011, 6:49pm okay,.. I have read it.. But I need the connector from the first picture, correct??? If it is so, then I have the right one.. :-/ It would be better if it where the wrong ;) Because then I had the failure and the car would maybe run :) Tomorrow and Monday are my last days before I must go to work. So I have until the week no time for the car.. It would be so nice if its starts before.. |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 26th, 2011, 11:42pm ... or I ask of an other way. Is there perhabs a difference between the looms? So that my loom with automatic and clima automatic must have pins like the 2,0l connector? Ray, can you or anyone else find out which pins my connector must have? I wonder, because the connector on the first picture is one of an 2,3 manual. Markus |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Tompion on Feb 27th, 2011, 12:44am on 02/24/11 at 19:41:13, Tompion wrote:
My 2.3 is with automatic and clima automatic |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 27th, 2011, 8:30am Moppi, hier ist mann anderer Meinung / different opinion here: http://www.ford-forum.de/showthread.php?t=84592 und hier / here: http://www.ford-forum.de/showthread.php?t=78265 HTH Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Cosray on Feb 27th, 2011, 8:36am on 02/11/11 at 16:48:11, Cosray wrote:
This is the 2.0 diagram for reference & comparison: http://cid-eb36f845ea9b8fb6.office.live.com/self.aspx/WIRING%20DIAGRAMS/ENGINE%20CONTROL%202-3L%2016V%20EFI%20%5E5MANUAL%5E6%20IGNITION.pdf#resId/EB36F845EA9B8FB6!176 HTH Ray |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Tompion on Feb 27th, 2011, 1:41pm This is the label on my new loom. The plug is the old loom, but obviously the same layout. http://i.imgur.com/NwIj3ai.jpg |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Feb 27th, 2011, 1:49pm thank you for the pictures! Okay,.. my connector looks like that. All the wires and pins are the same. Now I measure all the wires, and than I put it into the car. So I think it isn´t the Problem. So I will measure tomorrow all the other wires. An when I will not find the failure, the car goes to the electrican. But I think, that I will drive the car in next time. I dont´t want to buy an other... Than you for help, I send an post when I know what is the failure! |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on Mar 16th, 2011, 6:48pm so,.. today my scorpio has gone to the master of electric,.. I hope that he can repair the car. At Friday he had time to look for it,.. perhabs then I have some news :) So I will post the news here at friday... ;D |
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Title: Re: Big Problems with Scorpio 2,3 Post by Moppi on May 30th, 2011, 8:49pm So,.. a long time a go, but I have no possible news. The man who has said, that he is an master of electrik has only look two times for my car. But he also said, that he don´t know where is the failure. So I think that I will sell the car. No one can show me the problem or can repair it. It is not that what I want, but what will I do... So I think it´s time to say good bye.. Thank you for your big help, you´re really great! I wish all of you a good time with the Scorpio´s. Look for it, and keep them alive! Greats from Berlin.. Markus |
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