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        General >> Problems >> Possible immobilizer problem
        
(Message started by: wbph on Feb 23^rd, 2011, 9:40am)

Title: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by wbph on Feb 23^rd, 2011, 9:40am

Still an ongoing problem with my '97 Scorpio failing to start intermittently, and looking for help.

A few months ago the key fob failed, as did both door locks (at the same time!). We got in by putting an air bag between the door and the roofline and used a rod to open the door via the door lever. Didn't activate any alarms.

Got second hand door locks and a new fob!

We were warned at the time it might cause the immobolizer to cut in by cutting off the fuel. It didn't, and everything ran ok for some weeks until one day the engine would not start. Everything else electrical was working except the door windows, all four. Left it for twenty minutes and it started up ok, and continued running ok for another fortnight, until the same problem occured again. Wouldn't restart this time.

Got it to a workshop where it started first time, and a diagnostic readout showed a problem with fuse 25 (windows)(Not blown). This was changed and all was well for some weeks until last week it happenned again.

Back to the garage where we ended up with a new fuse box after all sorts of silly things electrical were happenning including the headlights coming on with the fuse and relay removed, indicators flashing, but still not starting.

Got it back Monday, flat battery yesterday (Tuesday), got it started, it ran ok, swtiching on and off ok. Left it for an hour came back, same problem engine started then died three times, couldn't open the windows. Battery drained completely within about fifteen minutes. Airbag light was flashing on and off intermittently with the ignition on.

Not being electrically minded the security light in the centre of the console is steady until the door unlocks, and then goes mental if your press the window button.

Any ideas please? - immobilizer? - can it be reset?

Hefty donation waiting for the right answer. I have lost confidence in it now, which will take a lot of getting back. Love the car, had it eleven years, but this is trying my patience, and the replacement, a fourteen year old Citroen ZX is not quite the same!

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by Cosray on Feb 23^rd, 2011, 10:03am

... what model type engine before I dive in?

Ray

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by Highlander on Feb 23^rd, 2011, 10:28am

Panther Black 1997 2.3 Ultima Saloon :)

Is it manual or auto?

When you say its not starting...

Is it completely dead?
no starter motor?
does it just crank over?
crank over and try to start?

What fusebox did you change? was it a brand new one or used one you fitted?

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by Cosray on Feb 23^rd, 2011, 10:54am

Looks like we have an epidemic of electrical gremlins breaking loose this year... no small wonder since the youngest Scorpio is now 13 years old.

First checks for usual culprits

Inspect for brittle isolation, open & touching strands and correct:

looms next to the exhaust heatshields
looms over the engineinhjectors
main big connector with clip on said fusebox; make sure multiplug goes home gentle and clips well
9 connectors under the fusebox NOT next to the battery; disconnect, sprayclean and push home & seat gently

See here last 6 pics in album

http://bit.ly/fSDZtU

Let us know how you go!

HTH
Ray

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by wbph on Feb 23^rd, 2011, 10:19pm

As stated panther black 2.3 auto.

Battery has been ok up till now (it might be the original, I don't remember changing it anytime), but it still works ok.

Cranks away but not firing. You know when you have the problem because the windows won't open. Sometimes starts normally then dies. Put you foot on the floor start it, engine revs up high then dies to stop even if you juggle the throttle pedal.

Fuesbox was the drivers side one, brand new, one of four left at Fords (£214 !!)

Looked at the photos (gulp), my mechanical knowledge ran out when I traded in a Morris 1000 so its in a garage again. Absolutely beyond my technical skills with this one.

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by Cosray on Feb 24^th, 2011, 8:32am

Aftre you looked at the pics, did you inspect the looms I indicated + the connectors? Our usual suspects? What did you find?

Is it an automatic?

There was a similar case reported here the other day. I was triggered by your phrase "headlights coming on with the fuse and relay removed, indicators flashing, but still not starting."

Perhaps our moderators have the tools to do a quick serach on that phrase? Identical behaviour IIRC.

HTH
Ray

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by Highlander on Feb 24^th, 2011, 9:26am

Check the bottom of the battery side fusebox for water.

Not where the fuses are but the section underneath which pops off

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by wbph on Feb 24^th, 2011, 3:19pm

Just been shown extensive damage to the front wiring loom, the bit that goes over the top of the engine. Brittle and broken in many places, exposed wires, some touching, so I suppose it was a wonder it was running at all. Two wires in a plug located above the spark plugs touching thereby shorting out the electrics there. If I was told the wires were fifty years old I might agree, they looked and felt truly ancient.

Passenger side fuse box damp with verdigrie, engine management fuse blown and one relay not relaying as it should possibly connected to the problem above.

New Ford loom should cure most of it, now looking for a good passenger side fuse box and not willing to pay another £224 for a brand new one.

The cost so far is getting to the value of the car, but we will pay it because the car is so good and comfortable otherwise. It's on its last chance though!

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by Cosray on Feb 24^th, 2011, 5:22pm

There you are, another loom's gremlins grinning...

On this loom you will find a white FORD label with a barcode and a FINIS 95- or 96- number for ordering.

These looms are still scattered around as Old New Stock but do make sure it has the same FINIScode as on the label. Elsewhere on this forum one was on offer the other day at Ford Parts somewhere?

Verdigris in a fusebox is no recommendation for undisturbed travel. Is that the fusebox on the car's lefthand side? If so please inspect its underside from the footwell up; see my pics above. You will find at least 10 connectors with 100 contacts all sizzling with oxydation.

They are colourcoded so disconnect one by one, sprayclean, conserve and reconnect pushing them home gently but securily. They are responsible for faulty doorajar indications, powerwindows failing, dashlights flashing, seat memory probs etc.

If you type [loom] into the searchbox at the bottom of our website's Homepage you will find many similar stories.

HTH
Ray

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by Mike H on Feb 24^th, 2011, 7:58pm

Eureka! So-called "fuel cut-off loom"strikes again. http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/th_thumbsup.gif

This could be repaired much more cheaply by soldering in new wires, I've done it. This wiring is a well known weak spot on the 2.0L & 2.3L's. The insulation is roasted to death by the heat trapped under the plastic cover. I covered my new wires with heat resistant sleeving (glassfibre based) and now leave the plastic cover off to let the heat escape more easily.

"Got second hand door locks and a new fob!

"We were warned at the time it might cause the immobolizer to cut in"

Not if it's the same keys & transponders, immobilisation is done by PATS

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by Mike H on Feb 24^th, 2011, 7:59pm

PS: cannot the fuse box be "rescued" ? A clean up + WD40?

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by Mike H on Feb 24^th, 2011, 8:02pm

PPS: while in that area how old are the spark plugs? If unknown, worth checking the gaps.

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by wbph on Feb 26^th, 2011, 9:34am

Good news from the front

New loom fitted, existing fuse box removed, cleaned and replaced, and, at this stage, its working. I had only checked this a few weeks ago, but before all that damp and horrible weather we have had since Christmas so its come on quite quickly, bt it appears the main culprit was the loom.

Thanks for the input.

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by Cosray on Feb 26^th, 2011, 10:15am

Well done, good luck - enjoy your Scorpio to the full!

Ray

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by Mike H on Feb 26^th, 2011, 1:04pm

on 02/26/11 at 09:34:55, wbph wrote:

I had only checked this a few weeks ago, but before all that damp and horrible weather we have had since Christmas so its come on quite quickly,

It's got a battery cover I presume? If not get one sooner than soon as poss....

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by wbph on Feb 26^th, 2011, 1:32pm

We intend to carry on with the car because we have had it ten years, they are tremendous value for money, and big and comfortable.
I will be having a stern chat with it when we get it back and a waving of a rolled up newspaper is in order just to let it know who the boss is, but I expect it will be like talking to our cats, it will just do its own thing!

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by Mike H on Feb 27^th, 2011, 11:24am

Flog it with a tree branch (Basil Fawlty) ;D

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by Highlander on Feb 27^th, 2011, 11:34am

on 02/27/11 at 11:24:16, Mike H wrote:

Flog it with a tree branch (Basil Fawlty) ;D

Classic telly ;D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78b67l_yxUc

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by wbph on Feb 27^th, 2011, 2:11pm

I can't afford to get any more physical, its been bashed twice in the last year by others, written off both times because of the cost of repairs, so we are getting our money back slowly.

I told the wife she can get it dented anywhere, except on the roof! ;D

Title: Re: Possible immobilizer problem
Post by Highlander on Feb 27^th, 2011, 2:50pm

Can we ask why your wife would be on the roof? ;D