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Title: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Apr 9th, 2011, 12:31pm I lent my 24v to my mate while I was away; while he was driving it cut out and would not start. When he tried to re-start the engine would turn over then die. He called the AA and the AA man said it was an air intake problem but could not fix it; he then adjusted something so more air/fuel got through; this allowed my friend to get home. I now have the car back and its running at about 2000 rpm higher than it should (fuel consumption reads 5 mpg eek) and its dog rough. My mate does not know what the AA man adjusted and I need to get it back to what it should be to sort the initial problem. Can anyone advised me what I need to adjust to undo what the AA man did, I am guessing its something to do with the Idle control valve/Idle screw or throttle cable. Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Apr 9th, 2011, 3:16pm Ok I think I found it http://i51.tinypic.com/5buy6q.jpg I could see the shiny part of the thread where he has moved it Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Matt on Apr 9th, 2011, 4:32pm HI Tony Id say hes moved that screw so just wind it back till the idle is about 800 as for the air leak i could be the plastic T piece under the intake has snapped off, can you hearing it sucking air? Best sort the idle out though as it will be putting the auto box under excessive strain |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Apr 11th, 2011, 7:09pm Hi Matt Got the idle speed back to around 800. car is ok untill engine gets hot (driven about 3 miles( then cuts out, will only start by pressing the gas pedal, it then cuts out. Not sure I can see the t-piece clearly, but cant hear it sucking in air. cleaned the maf and IACV valve and no change. will do an odb2 scan next. thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Matt on Apr 11th, 2011, 7:49pm Hiya Id try and sort the air leak first, Do you have a hiss when you open the filler cap or when you turn it off? |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Apr 11th, 2011, 9:58pm If you’re using the Alex Pepper lead you’ll find on the enhanced page the desired RPM & the actual RPM – this will be higher with a cold engine. I would imagine you’ll find a range where the screw has little effect (because you’ll be within the range of the IAC which will be trying to correct the actual RPM to the desired RPM). I would have thought you should be able to see a witness mark/line of carbon where the butterfly had been originally, but as Matt said you need to find the leak first – assuming there is one. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Apr 12th, 2011, 12:05pm See here about 24V vacuum pipes & 'T' pieces: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/vacuumpipesg.htm There are lots of them! I'd check them ALL over if I were you, quite a bit can go wrong there ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Highlander on Apr 12th, 2011, 3:14pm Hi Tony, symptoms would suggest fuel pressure regulator? The AA, RAC etc dont appear to be the great car guru's they used to be, I hear a lot of stories of wrong diagnosis now. Maybe as cars get more complicated it gets harder to make a good diagnosis but they probably just aren't allowed the time to do it anymore.. So don't take the AA diagnosis as gospel.. If you spray easy start or WD40 round the vaccum pipes and manifold seals while its running an air leak should show by changing the engine note. Check the air and coolant temperature readings are all ok. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Apr 12th, 2011, 5:37pm Thanks everyone, I need to charge the battery then I will check all the vacuum pipes as advised. I am not sure there is an air leak, The AA man said he could not find any leak and according to my friend he did spend some time checking. Would a leak cause the car to cut out when hot? Looking on the fault finder on the main site, it does appear to look like a fuel pressure regulator as Stuart says. I did an ODB scan and at cold start up and got the following http://i55.tinypic.com/33cxhsj.jpg Then when the engine got hot it gave the following readings just before it cut out. http://i56.tinypic.com/11ky0ww.png I also get the following error codes referring to the lambda sensors, although I did get these codes before the car stared cutting out. P0131 Upstream Heated Oxygen Sensor circuit out of range - Bank No. 1. P0151 Upstream Heated Oxygen Sensor circuit out of range - Bank No. 2. In the Status Menu I also get Oxygen Sensor: No Oxygen Sensor Heater: No Exhaust Gas Recirculation: NO Many Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pegasus on Apr 12th, 2011, 9:08pm Hi Tony, it might be the FPR. I had a similar problem (though not as bad as yours). Mine occasionally cut out when restarting with a hot engine after a few seconds then no problem - just embarrassing having an auto stall ??? My scans showed LONGFTs arounds -10 to -12%. So changed the FPR. Seemed ok for a while but it still occasionally stalls (though less frequently) and LONGFTs show -7 to -9% at idle. Everything else working as it should and never generated a code (LONGFTs have to get to around +/- 25% I think). Haven't bothered (yet) to get to the bottom of cause - might have another look this summer Anyway, if you feel the need to have a go at changing the FPR there's a method on the site that I've adapted. It'll take about an hour and cost about £50 from FPUK. I've documented my method (with pics) so if you want, pm me your email address and I'll send it to you. Paul |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Apr 13th, 2011, 1:24pm Hi Paul :-) PM sent FPUK dont have the fuel pressure regulator for a scorpio, however the guy said if I give him the part number he may have a better idea, can anyone help with the part no? Many thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by scorpio_man on Apr 13th, 2011, 7:13pm hi there i'd run a scan on your pre cat lambda sensors (both cold and hot engine) as your figures suggest the engine is running rich. btw, you say you're charging the battery. was the scan done before a flat battery? anyway, part number is 7334684. hth |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Apr 14th, 2011, 7:49pm Hi Scorpio Man, thanks for the part number. When I did then scan the battery appeared ok although the car has hardly been run as I have been away for 2 weeks. It was the day after the scan I had problem’s starting it. I don’t think I can do a pre cat lambda scan as I think the error codes are saying they are not working or not connected, I did get these error codes before the cut out problem. I will see if I can scan the pre cat lambda sensors tomorrow and if I can’t, I may consider renewing the lambda sensors before getting a new FPR. Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by scorpio_man on Apr 14th, 2011, 8:41pm hi there your lambdas are working to some extent. the car needs to be running for about 180 seconds to get 'true' readings from them. see how you get on. hth |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Apr 16th, 2011, 8:08pm Hi Scorpio man here is my latest scan, I am not sure I am doing it correct as most of the 02 options give me error connecting readings just after start up http://i53.tinypic.com/20zd6c7.jpg http://i56.tinypic.com/2hyhco.jpg reading just before the car started to cut out http://i56.tinypic.com/2je30y9.jpg http://i53.tinypic.com/245x2qt.jpg http://i55.tinypic.com/vs05xx.jpg Any help as to whats going on would be appreciated Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by scorpio_man on Apr 17th, 2011, 9:13am hi there if you zip the 3 parts of the file together and email them to me, i'll have a look at it. you need to scan the following...... RPM MAF LTFT BOTH front LAMBDA SENSORS run these for 5 mins at idle (a/c OFF). every minute, blip the throttle to 2k rpm. end this scan(acts as chapters as in a book). then do another scan, switching on and off various temp sensors. also check the tps with the engine off (ignition on). should be from 16% to 92% ish. try not to drive it on the scan. oh, check the box with auto re-connect under the GATEWAY, PROTOCOL tabs. that way it should continue to scan even if you need to re-start the engine. save the scans and send them to me (3 different file names.... file1, file2, etc). http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/easyguide.htm also this...... http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/obdfaq.htm forget the any board bit now.. hth |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Apr 17th, 2011, 12:31pm Thanks Scorpio Man :-) I will send you the info, could you please tell me what part of the program I use to scan both from o2 sensors, ther are so many 02 options. Thanks in advance Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by scorpio_man on Apr 17th, 2011, 1:32pm hi there o2s11 & o2s21 are the front lambda sensors. see your photo above where you scanned the o2s11 sensor. hth |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Apr 17th, 2011, 11:05pm Thanks Scorpio_man email sent Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by scorpio_man on Apr 18th, 2011, 6:07pm hi there i had a look at the scans and they look fine. the fuelling wont be accurate as the battery went flat, so the ecu will be re-learning the values again. it does point to the fuel pressure regulator, but make sure there's no air leaks, etc. hth |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Apr 18th, 2011, 9:40pm Thanks Scorpio man :) I will check for leaks as stuart advised using wd 40 sprayed around the pipes. I do get quite a loud hiss when I undo the fuel cap ( I think Matt asked me this). I am having problems trying find a FPR. many thanks again Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Apr 19th, 2011, 11:14am Daft question time ~ re pressure regulator, if it is that, what state is the fuel filter in? Put it another way, has it ever been renewed? |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Apr 21st, 2011, 12:35pm Hi Mike I have only had the car since Jan, I have the full service history for the last 6 years and the car has only done 20k in those last 6 years. I am away at the moment so don’t have the history to hand but I do remember seeing at least 1 fuel filter in the receipts. Do you know how long these filters last? Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Highlander on Apr 21st, 2011, 1:12pm Hi Tony, I doubt that many Scorpios out there have EVER had them changed since new ;) I should have a spare FPR somewhere, will have a look |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Apr 21st, 2011, 5:14pm I dunno was just a thought, somewhere on Amazon is a 2.3 service kit, oil, air, cabin filters, a sump plug, and, ;D a fuel filter. The implication is it's changed annually or thereabouts |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Apr 21st, 2011, 8:57pm I thought the same as Mike, that the fuel filter was changed as part of a regular service. Thanks for the offer of a FPR Stuart :-) Let me know if you find it. Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Highlander on Apr 22nd, 2011, 1:46am Ford service schedule states a fuel filter change every 6 years or 60,000 miles. I suspect many of them of them after 6 years would no longer be getting the benefit of main dealer servicing and may have missed out. most of the ones i've looked at dont appear to have touched for a long time.. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Apr 22nd, 2011, 8:10am I agree with Stuart, a lot of garages skip fuel filters cos they can be a slight arse to change sometimes ;) Less scrupulous garages even charge for the filters although they end up under the mechanics bench :( Physically check it yourself, and if okay then I'd go for FPR ;) HTH Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by gozz on Apr 22nd, 2011, 9:09am I usually change the fuel filter when taking on another funeral vehicle because they are often so old they are nearly rusted through,as you say Dave it's not something a modern vehicle 'technician' would do,after all he could get petrol on his important personage ::) GOZZ. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Simmo on Apr 22nd, 2011, 10:01am It's a simple job and the details are Here (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/fuel/general/FuelFilterPRepl.pdf). ;) |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Highlander on Apr 22nd, 2011, 10:05am It looks simple on there! I've spent half a day trying to do that in the past! ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Apr 22nd, 2011, 10:31am on 04/22/11 at 09:09:06, gozz wrote:
http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/thlaugh.gif |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Apr 22nd, 2011, 10:34am Interesting one innit? I mean not like it costs a fortune as a part for goodness sake on 04/22/11 at 10:05:06, Highlander wrote:
Guess depends how crudded up it is! ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Apr 22nd, 2011, 4:20pm Yeah, your all dead right ;) Petrol might melt his dainty little surgical gloves LOL And I agree with Stuart, I've had some that have been proper arses before now..........once I get 'em all off then I clean up all the threads and copaslip it all, next time it's a doddle ;) Worst one I ever seen to do was XJ8 Jaguar, right above driveshaft exhaust and rear cradle, real b****r to get a hand in, without a 19mm spanner x2 to get the unions off !! Cheers Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Apr 23rd, 2011, 1:34pm Where is this filter located then, somewhere near the fuel tank? Is it visable without raising the car? Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Highlander on Apr 23rd, 2011, 3:10pm Just in front of the tank Tony, you'll need to raise the car to get at it http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/fuel/general/FuelFilterPRepl.pdf |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by lleewar on Apr 24th, 2011, 4:03pm Tony, I changed mine because of possible fuel starvation and it was an easy job :). I found the filter connections hard to pull off but that's it. Everyone has different experiences. Lee NB have you checked your PM's |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Apr 29th, 2011, 8:27pm My fuel filter looks in a bad way to me or is this normal ? http://i55.tinypic.com/aceyb9.jpg Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Apr 29th, 2011, 9:18pm Looks about in the same state as mine, I think it's the inside that matters most. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Apr 30th, 2011, 3:22pm I would concur ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Highlander on Jun 28th, 2011, 2:21pm Tony, this is the thread about the 2.3 I was talking about which had similar symptoms to yours.. the final conclusion being : "a wiring fault from the EDIS unit to the ECU. This meant that at times the voltage to the pump was suddenly dropped from 12 volts to less than 6 volts which stopped it dead" http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1179604233;start=0 For everyone elses info, Tony's 24v is running fine but cutting out once it warms up... The AA guy screwed up the fuel so it idled at 2000 rpm but it didnt cut out Whats been tried so far : changed the FPR Cleaned IACV Replaced Fuel pump relay Disconnected Aircon Compressor checked vaccum pipes/manifolds for airleaks MAF cleaned I'm sending him an IACV, Camshaft sensor, crankshaft sensor and EDIS 6 unit to try |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by martin_rowe on Jun 28th, 2011, 4:10pm fit a fuel pressure guage and take it a run, monitor pressure, that will give a clue as to wheather pump is loosing power. Or even a lead lamp connected to the pump terminals at the tank, would need to have some load on it ,21w bulb, not a simple test lamp, you would see the lamp go dull when there was a volt drop as the circuit came under load. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by martin_rowe on Jun 28th, 2011, 4:13pm Or does the injection duration go long & llambda go lean as pump pressure goes low. Just another thought. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Jun 29th, 2011, 1:10am Hi Martin Thanks for your reply. I can’t really do much testing as the car has got worse. When I tried it yesterday it turned over immediately but the idle was very erratic, it cut out several times and lasted about 5 mins before it cut out and would not restart without immediately dying. With just the ignition on, I also noticed a clicking noise (like Morse code) coming from the area in front of the coolant reservoir (Edis maybe?) But it’s not done this since Sunday. First thing I need to do is replace the battery as I am having trouble starting unless the battery is fully charged. When I fully charge the battery it only lasts 2 days so either its duff or something is draining it. Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Highlander on Jun 29th, 2011, 10:45am on 06/29/11 at 01:10:13, Pianoman wrote:
might be a clue, I'd expect a similar noise when the battery is flat however usually from the nearside. I'll get this EDIS posted off to you Tony, worth a try. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by martin_rowe on Jun 29th, 2011, 1:13pm I come accross quite a few 'non start' problems now, caused by battery voltage dropping below 10v during cranking, theres then not enough power to 'power' the ECU, resulting in non start, but engine still cranks over. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Jul 1st, 2011, 10:40am Yeah Martin, Your dead right there ;) There might be a clue in there, I'd check the charging rates at idle and at 2000 rpm to see if the alternator has a fault and is dragging the voltage down ;) Clicking noise could have been arcing in the alternator which is directly below the EDIS pack ;) HTH Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Jul 1st, 2011, 1:19pm I dont know of the following could be part of the problem? before the car developed the current problem, it drove perfect but after about half an hour the rev counter would go goes crazy, it flickers up and down even when the car is not changing gear. the autobox is changing fine and the engine is not following the rev counter. The car had a new altenator 18 months ago. I tightened the battery terminials and this appeard to stop it or prolong it. Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Jul 2nd, 2011, 9:51am Check that alternator and it's wiring, make sure bolts are tight and terminals are tight and not shorting. Some rebuilt units don't last 18 months ;) Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Simmo on Jul 2nd, 2011, 10:38am This page (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/electsystemtest.htm) if you haven't already seen it may help. :) |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Jul 9th, 2011, 10:16pm Update I finaly got the battery tested today and it was faulty. It was still under warranty but the guy did not have a replacement 097 so he gave me a varta 72AH with 700 somthing CCA. Anyway, made sure it was fully charged and fitted it and now I cant start the car :-( I have not missed any wires from the battery. The same thing happend after I fitted a new FPR but after fully charging the battery It started. I suppose I need to check all the fuses next ? The higher capacity battey wont cause problems will it? Tony PS not checked the alternator yet as I am waiting for my m8 to lend me a trolly jack and axel stands |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Snoopy on Jul 10th, 2011, 7:41am The Higher capacity battery will be good for winter starting, as to the rev counter the fault would appear IMHO to be with the replacement alternator, worth checking the leads that go to and from the alternator are nice and tight fit, as previously advised. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Simmo on Jul 10th, 2011, 7:43am The battery details are Here (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/battery.htm) and the size you have is correct. :) |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Jul 10th, 2011, 3:25pm Been to check all the battery connections and have noticed a green (ground wire I think) That is connected to the top of the aux fusebox, the other end is just tucked down the side of the aux fusebox. http://i56.tinypic.com/sxkks5.jpg I cant see where it should be attached to, can anyone tell me where to attach it and the implications of this wire not being connected? Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by gozz on Jul 10th, 2011, 8:18pm You're having us on,it's a bit of a rose bush growing in the leaf mulch ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Simmo on Jul 11th, 2011, 7:09am Tony. It looks like it is an 'add on' which a previous owner has used to connect some piece of kit. Have you checked if it is carrying current?. Where is it actually connected?. Are you sure it doesn't go through the large rubber grommet, which carries all the cables into the car,and thus in to the interior somewhere to serve a previously fitted item?. :) |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Jul 11th, 2011, 1:37pm How peculiar! |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Jul 11th, 2011, 4:59pm Simmo you are spot on :-) When I first saw the wire it looked like it was feeding out from under the fusebox, upon further inspection it does go through the large grommet into the car so I guess its from some previous device and not related to the problem. The car starts today (although it dies quickly) I am almost sure now that everytime I connect the battery the car will not start untill its been left for a minimum of 24 hours. I read somewhere on the forum that if you mess with the edis without disconneting the battry (which I have not) the car can take up to 24 hours to start. Do you think this could be it, bearing in mind that Highlander suggested it could be the edis or the wiring from the edis to the ECU? Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Jul 13th, 2011, 9:00am Have you tried a look at fuel pressure, then live data / fault codes ? Otherwise you're stabbing in the dark :) Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Jul 14th, 2011, 10:10pm Hi Dave I cant get the car to start now, It turns over and almost fires up but cuts out, like its not getting any fuel. When it did start scorpio man got me to do a scan of the RPM,MAF,LTFT and both front lambda sensors. He said the scans where ok. Can you tell me how to test the fuel pressure? Many thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by howiedintheplace on Jul 15th, 2011, 11:18am Hi I have not had time to read all that lot but heres my input. The car had a idle problem to start with so the AA guy just forced the car to idle higher above the problem area to get you home. So that most likely points to the below. Air leak Idle Valve Fuel pressure Lambda's Possible wiring fault Cutting out when hot after screw adjusted back Air leak Fuel Pressure Lambda's Plug or ignition problem Now won't start up at all Fuel Pressure Air Leak Plug or ignition problem So look at the last 3. You say you have checked for leaks so cross of air leaks Fuel pressure. First can you hear the pump running at any time? Remove the petrol cap is there any pressure release to show the tank is not breathing. You will see a tyre valve on one of the petrol pipes that go to the engine. Straight after you try starting it just push the valve in to see if any petrol pressure is there. Or better still get a gauge to measure it correctly should be about 2.5 - 3 bar at idle. If everything checks out O.K look for dodgy wiring or an ignition fault. Pretty unlikely the alternator will make any difference mate or the fuse box. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Jul 15th, 2011, 3:42pm on 06/29/11 at 01:10:13, Pianoman wrote:
Check glovebox light or boot light are not permanently on. I've took both bulbs out of mine to make sure; I found the glovebox bulb burnt out and remembered my neighbour who had it before me said it kept going flat for a while, then "mysteriously stopped doing it", i.e. the bulb finally expired I presume ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Jul 15th, 2011, 3:53pm This has been going on a long time now! Since April? Gone back to the beginning and things that were suggested but been no come-back about, are: Spark plugs / ignition OK ~ have you looked at the plugs? Could have humungous spark gaps about as useful as a chocolate teapot.... Damaged coils, HT arcing where it shouldn't? Vacuum tubes ~ despite various "in situ" testing suggestions I'd have the whole lot off and scrutinize under a magnifying glass if necessary..... I've had it happen where something is wearing it through 'cause it's rubbing on something but of course you miss it because it's completely hidden. Split ends, but can't see the split, had all of that.... |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Jul 15th, 2011, 4:00pm on 07/15/11 at 11:18:17, howiedintheplace wrote:
Yes leave the driver's door open and turn ign to position 2, should easily hear the fuel pump start up (?) Also as previously mentioned, fuel tank should have a slight vacuum in it so air hisses in when fuel cap is undone. Although suspect only after car has been running a bit, which this, er, can't.... |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by howiedintheplace on Jul 15th, 2011, 5:40pm Yes the EVAP will pull a slight vacuum but if it's not working right it will create the symptoms as you describe. If you think there is excessive vac replace the cap with an emergency one for testing. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Jul 16th, 2011, 12:06pm So could be no more than a dodgy filler cap? http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/blink.gif |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by howiedintheplace on Jul 17th, 2011, 10:03am It's worth checking but it's pretty unlikley as if the car is left it should be O.K again until it's run for a few minutes then the problem should return so don't fit the current problem. To answer your PM Pianoman the valve for testing the fuel pressure is on one of the fuel pipes that travels across the passenger rocker cover, trace them back & around the engine mount area you will see one pipe has a valve. As for testing remember that pipe should have petrol under pressure so don't take any chances. The valve can screw out just like a tyre one & you need a gauge of course! |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Jul 17th, 2011, 12:27pm on 07/15/11 at 11:18:17, howiedintheplace wrote:
Just occurred to me that that might be because it's got so "clagged up" now from all the previous attempts (?) Still worth looking at the plugs (going back to basics), e.g. if completely caked with soot that's a clue, conversely if completely dry and no smell of fuel on them that's another clue (?) Just a thought |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Jul 17th, 2011, 3:27pm @ Dave & Mike, thank for your input I will go through all your suggestions and report back. Whre can I buy this gauge? are they all standard ? Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by lleewar on Jul 17th, 2011, 4:17pm Tony, before buying a gauge, remove the protection cap and push the valve in and see if any fuel comes out. Lee |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Jul 18th, 2011, 6:57pm Weather has been awful here but managed to try the following today. Replaced Fuses F16 and 17 in main fuse box. Replaced Fuses 31,34,37 and 42 in aux fuse box Replaced relay R17 and 19 in aux fuse box. Checked vacuum T pieces and they were all connected and looked ok although I could only raise the plenum centre section slightly, is there a method to remove this without removing the plenum side section? The fuel pump sounds like its working. When I release the fuel cap these is a very big hiss. Pressed the fuel valve in and fuel slowly trickled out, is this what it’s supposed to do or should there be pressure? Will remove the plugs later is the rain stay off. Many thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Jul 18th, 2011, 9:15pm If the fuel cap were the problem then you’ll only need to leave it undone for the engine to run. You won’t get much fuel coming out of the valve if it’s only primed (pump runs briefly at ignition on then stops unless engine fires). |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by pedropedro on Jul 26th, 2011, 8:37am sounds like my problem..see my thread "HELP engine just dies" Was wiring between edis and ecu; all wires were rotten cant believe mine was a one off. Relatively easy to fix, needs some good wire and some skill with soldering iron/heatshrink etc ..arc euro trade supply good cable, search "screened cable" part # 165-040-00100 you can prove the fault by bending the short loom immediately after the edis plug; will cause engine to start/stop if its at fault; suspect it is from your desription lift up header tank (remove x2 10mm nuts), remove edis plug, cut the red/white+black/ white+purple/ white wires at edis 3" back from edis plug run cable to ecu plug where do same thing and solder screen Ive checked wiring for engine control 2.9 24v & is identical to the 2.3 engine that I have re the edis / ecu hook up its page 2 good luck maybe your fault is different to mine but sounds similar ...john |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Jul 26th, 2011, 10:18am on 07/18/11 at 21:15:16, Tompion wrote:
Agreed re cap......... However, if you cycle the ignition so the pump has run, you should get a squirt of petrol initially when you press the valve in, as there should be about 2 bar pressure in the line at this stage. Can't beleive no one has suggested Fuel Filter as this problem has got steadily worse ;) When was that last changed ?? Have a look physically as I have known garages to charge for them on service but not change it as it can be a bit of an arse if not done recently ;) It is sounding like lack of fuel to me, so start with the basics, stick 12V on the pump and see if you get a good flow of fuel from the test valve ;) HTH Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Jul 26th, 2011, 1:21pm The amount of petrol held in the pipe work etc is relatively small so the quantity of petrol will be small even at 2 bar - just what’s compressed into the flexible hoses, assuming there’s not a lot of air in the system. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by pedropedro on Jul 26th, 2011, 2:23pm fuel pump is a high quality product and unlikely to fail.....2 bar doesnt produce much fuel at valve...and ecu is turning pump off if engine doesnt fire....easy to check pump but only if its disconnected from line as non stop fuel to injectors may harm cat. if pump runs for 3-4 secs and doesnt fire may be wiring issue ..i spent x3 days dropping tank replacing filter undoing cap etc etc until i got my head into what was going on |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Jul 26th, 2011, 4:59pm on 07/26/11 at 10:18:48, Dave2302 wrote:
I could've done that ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Jul 27th, 2011, 10:57am on 07/26/11 at 16:59:08, Mike H wrote:
LOL Must have missed that ;) And sorry chaps, will have to disagree re the fuel test point, go try it on a good runing car............. The OP says he only got a dribble of fuel, upon first pressing in the schrader valve there should have been a squirt, gradually dying down to a trickle over a second or 2 without the pump running................ If not then there is a fuel pressure problem................ Of Course a proper test gauge will be a far more accurate way to test ;) Cheers Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Jul 27th, 2011, 12:42pm I wouldn't have posted if I hadn't tried it on my car previously & "You won’t get much fuel coming out of the valve if it’s only primed" is based on that. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Jul 27th, 2011, 7:15pm on 07/27/11 at 10:57:57, Dave2302 wrote:
I didn't think I had mentioned it actually, so at that precise moment what I meant was that I could have thought of it earlier. It turns out however that after all I did mention it, in April ;D This is still the same original prob that the AA man tweaked it for isn't it? Quote:
All of a sudden this is sounding like pedropedro's problem, "rotten" screened lead between EDIS and ECU (?) Guess a fast idle would help keep it going if it was misfiring provided not too seriously, but now it is serious |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by pedropedro on Jul 27th, 2011, 7:45pm highly unlikey i am the only scorpio driver with a rubbish cable from edis to ecu..maybe they changed the cable at some stage but doubt it ..symptoms are intermittent running ,,dying etc and it looks like it is fuel problem but ecu controls pump.. chicken and egg.......no fire no fuel pump drive....it takes 2 hours to run in a new cable...if I had another scorp i would cut into that short loom from the edis and then open the coax cable carrying the x3 wires to the ecu to see its condition..would take 15 mins to do that ..if ok can tape back together |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Jul 27th, 2011, 8:34pm on 07/27/11 at 19:45:11, pedropedro wrote:
Are you sure about that? ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by pedropedro on Jul 27th, 2011, 9:08pm about what ? ........ ok got it ! |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by howiedintheplace on Jul 28th, 2011, 10:19am It could be the wiring. The crazy rev counter & sudden no go then starts & general eratic symtoms does also point to it. One wire goes to the ecu & one back to the module. The rev counter gets a signal from the ECU so it points to the wire from the module to the ecu. You can test it by monitoring the injectors & module output but I don't know how electrically minded you are as it's gonna be above most DIYer's. However it could still be the pump & fuel system so you need a list. Work you way down the list testing everything & eventually you will find the problem. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Jul 28th, 2011, 9:43pm To double-quote PJDavis (I think) given the age of the cars now electrical wiring has to be high on the suspects list |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Jul 28th, 2011, 9:44pm PS: think yourselves lucky we aren't using rubber insulation any more! ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by pedropedro on Jul 30th, 2011, 10:10am easier way to check that edis ecu cable...unplug edis connector.....find the red/white blk/white purple/ white wires (without opening sleeving) those wires are clearly visible ........inspect carefully and you will/may see fine cracks in insulation..bend those exposed sections slightly and you may see the insulation crack / open. Oddly the other wires will probably be ok the x3 wires above are however in a separate sleeved cable and maybe different supplier...ive wrapped my new cable in aluminium foil in the section next to the header tank hose which gets very hot |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Aug 19th, 2011, 9:04pm I am back on this again. Thanks to everyone who’s posted so far. Not been doing much on this as my wife who works away has been home for 3 weeks and I have also been diagnosed with ME/chronic fatigue syndrome so don’t have much energy to sort the Scorpio after I have been working all day. Anyway today I did the following Put fully charged battery into Scorpio. It started first time but hunted wildly between 2000 and 150 RPM then cut out after about 15 seconds. Started it again and the same thing happened. After that it would not start. I then lifted the header tank and followed Pedroperdro’s suggestion of bending the short loom immediately after the edis plug. I could not do this while the engine was running as it would no longer start, but I did bend it in various directions and then tried to start the car without any luck. Checked the wires going into the edis connector and they do have fine cracks in but no worse them most of the other wires around the car. I then tried to check the plugs, but my spark plug wrench would not reach. Tried to buy a longer wrench from Halfords but they did not know the spark plug size, they reckoned the spark plugs for a 24v cost £8 a set so they have wrong info. Can someone please tell me the 24v spark plug diameter so I can get a wrench? Going to buy a fuel filter next, Halfords actually had a 24v filter according to their catalogue, but should I trust it to be correct for my car? I know they are overpriced but they are 2 mins from my house. Can anyone suggest what I should try next? Done the following so far Changed the Fuel Pressure regulator Cleaned IACV Replaced Fuel pump relay Disconnected Aircon Compressor checked vacuum pipes/manifolds for air leaks MAF cleaned Replaced Fuses F16 and 17 in main fuse box. Replaced Fuses 31,34,37 and 42 in aux fuse box Replaced relay R17 and 19 in aux fuse box. Fitted New Battery Recap of problem Mate borrowed car, while he was driving it cut out. AA man increased idle speed to stop it cutting out. When I got it back I put the idle speed back and found it started ok from cold and ran fine until it got hot then it cut out. The running time from cold start got progressively worse, now it starts first time if left several days then cuts out after about 10 seconds, you can then start it once more then it won’t start at all until its left for a few days Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Aug 21st, 2011, 3:23am Think of it like this............ So what is happening when you leave it for a few days ?? It sure as hell won't be dodgy wiring moving itself around and working again for a short period ;) This problem has got progressively worse ;) My money is on a Fuel Blockage somewhere, probable culprit either Fuel Filter, or the Screen Filter on the end of the pump inside the tank..................... By leaving it a couple of days, some of the crud will disperse slightly allowing a little fuel through to let it start. Easy way to prove this or disprove it................... Pressure Gauge on the Fuel Test Valve, switch ignition on, you should get around 1.5 - 2.0 bar reading, crank it and start it, and as it starts to run rough and die, if I'm right the fuel pressure will drop off at the same time ;) Spark Plugs are 5/8 Hex, you won't buy a "wrench" from Halfords, you need a deep 5/8 Socket and a long 3/8 drive extension bar and ratchet to get them out ;) But your problem is not your spark plugs ;) It is no good just changing bits willy nilly, it will cost you a fortune and you still might not cure it. Proper systematic diagnosis will save you time, frustration and a lot of money in the long run. HTH Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by gozz on Aug 21st, 2011, 10:58am HEAR HEAR 8) |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Aug 21st, 2011, 12:11pm Thanks Dave, I have ordered a fuel filter, anyone know where I can get a cheap fuel pressure guage ? Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Aug 21st, 2011, 12:42pm Obviously you need to take care when messing about with petrol and electricity but you could try disconnecting the return fuel line near the injectors and with the pump relay pins bridged see if the flow trails off, or measure the draw in amps of the fuel pump. Below are the results I got with my 2.3 that I had posted in the thread Highlander mentioned earlier. The cossie I believe has a stronger pump so the results may differ. on 05/24/07 at 13:07:04, Tompion wrote:
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Aug 21st, 2011, 5:55pm on 08/21/11 at 03:23:16, Dave2302 wrote:
Does kind of make sense I must admit 'Couse with this kind of system fuel is flowing all the time, up from the tank and then the 'excess' back to the tank via the fuel regulator, it's not like the old carburettor method where it just pumps it up then holds onto it. In that case blockage probs only really show up when you try booting it on the dual carriageway ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by pedropedro on Aug 21st, 2011, 7:13pm didnt you say there was a clicking noise around the edis area? also rpm gauge erratic ...when it runs just reach down to that cable from the edis and move it around, bend it and see if it stops the engine. Just sounds like exactly the symptoms i had |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Aug 21st, 2011, 9:27pm I think the vast majority of these types of problems have been electrical, I don't remember seeing much that was fuel related. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by pedropedro on Aug 22nd, 2011, 7:47am the cracked insulation on that cable from the edis may not appear to be an issue from a visual inspection ....also its not obvious until you strip back loom that its shielded...the coax touches the broken wires inside the cable and shorts them to ground...when i stripped back the cable itself it was a mess inside under the rubber sheathing oddly the other wires in that loom from the edis which arent sheathed on both my scorps are perfect; just the x3 in that cable that runs to the ecu are cracked..that was the indicator i was trying to point out if it werent screened it probably wouldnt be an issue . you might conclude no worse than rest of wiring on first inspection I would suggest to prove when running bend that edis cable |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:15am on 08/21/11 at 12:11:09, Pianoman wrote:
For a quick "one off" test any gauge that goes at least 0 - 60 psi and the line off an old footpump wil fit the test point..............Yes I know it won't be fuel proof, but it won't disintegrate in a couple of minutes either, and is a lot cheaper than a proper "garage" type fuel pressure test kit ;) HTH Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Octavian_P on Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:58am I had the same and exactly problem: Will sometime start, but run horrible and then die Will sometime stall in D or R Will not start for long periods Rev meter showing erratic In the end also dead battery Fouling the spark plugs with fuel Keeping it around 2000 rpm will make it run but badly. Problem was split in different areas: - Edis connector wouldn't make contact - Broken wires (impossible to see) - the famous screened 3 wires - Broken tach wire - Broken coil pack wires - Broken CKP wires Now a little technical facts 1) On the 24V the rev meter is controlled by the EDIS using only one wire (white / green) - the engine will run without it, but the meter wouldn't work. When the insulation of this touches ground or another wire it will show weird readings (or none) 2) The 3 screened wires go from the EDIS to the ECU and are responsible with carrying out the converted CKP signal and also adjusting spark timing (bi-directional communication from EDIS to ECU). When you have problems here, like i did, the engine will stall, and stop / start randomly. 3) CKP wires - broken insulation between them shorting out and making the EDIS believing the engine was not turning resulting in no spark I have fixed these wires and the car has run great for a while. Now i'm having problems with the 3 wires that go from the EDIS to the coil pack and the ground / power distribution. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Aug 22nd, 2011, 12:26pm on 08/22/11 at 10:15:27, Dave2302 wrote:
Top tip is that http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/th_thumbsup.gif |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Aug 22nd, 2011, 3:49pm Thanks for the tip, sadly I dont have an old foot pump, will this do the job Ebay Item number: 250872145890 ? Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Aug 22nd, 2011, 6:39pm You really want one that clips firmly onto the schrader valve - unless you want it plumbed in. This may have that but you'd have to check if that is what is in the box: 250851156462 I used one from my air compressor kit similar to this: http://www.diytools.co.uk/diy/Main/sp-53-11531-42436-draper-79529-air-tyre-inflator-with-pressure-gauge.asp Testing the amperage draw as a way of testing the pump/pressure is documented on the net. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Aug 22nd, 2011, 7:03pm Thanks Tompion :-) I will check with the guy whats in the box, Is it correct that putting an ammeter across pins 1 & 3 of fuel pump relay will be the same as using the fuel pressure guage? Many thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Aug 22nd, 2011, 7:59pm If you remove the relay and take a reading of the amperage at the sockets in the fusebox with the ignition on the pump will be running continuously (pumping fuel back to the tank via the FPR) if the reading is steady then rises significantly it’s likely there’s a restriction. You should also take a reading with the flow blocked so you know what reading a total blockage produces. (4.08Amps normal pressure & 5.6Amps blocked on my 2.3). You could take that reading when you change the filter – find something to plug the connector from the tank or crimp up the outlet of the old filter & use that. Note if you’ve had the ignition on the system will be pressurised, attempting to start with the relay removed should release the pressure. The tank may be pressurised so releasing air via the filler cap may reduce the amount of petrol dripping whilst the filter is removed. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Aug 22nd, 2011, 8:57pm on 08/22/11 at 19:59:30, Tompion wrote:
That's only true if the restriction is after the pump, if in fact the strainer in the tank is blocked the pump will draw less amps ;) The best way and the only way I would ever bother to do fuel pressure testing is with a pressure gauge. Right kit for the right job, proper diagnosis is not guess work, there could be all kinds of other unforseen reasons the amperage drawn by the pump may vary. If it's not diagnosed properly it will probably cost an arm and a leg, may not get fixed, then when OP gets the hump with it and sells it, someone will come along and fix it for little or no money. I recently bought an 03 plate one owner van for peanuts, had been in various garages, but none had fixed it, all had charged the previous owner, and most said over a grand to fix it because the main fuel pump had gone................. 4 hours I had the van, used the right kit to test things systematically and was road testing it within the 4 hours LOL.................... Bad connection plug on the fuel tank, which was stopping the lift pump running ;) So I got a 03 plate 2 grand van for 360 quid because of the dealers incompetence............Result Now if everyone is so convinced, (without even having seen this car LOL), that this is a wiring fault, fine..............Stick it on a scan, watch the live data in particular RPM signal to ECU..............That will prove it conclusively, or not, as the case may be. Now I'm not having a dig at anyone here and I know you are all only trying to help this guy out, but I fear this thread is pointing him in all sorts of different directions, and a lot of it is just guesswork. I'll say it once again, there is no substitute for proper diagnosis.................Never assume anything ;) HTH Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Aug 22nd, 2011, 10:29pm Fair enough, but I did suggest pumping fuel out to check the flow rate which would have checked for a blocked strainer in the tank. With a little thought you can check various scenarios. Like everything logical steps have to be taken & you have to draw conclusions from the results. I’ve not suggested replacing stuff or spending any money. I don't remember seeing any similar threads where the fault was the pump etc although of course that may be the problem. “Now if everyone is so convinced, (without even having seen this car LOL)” Surely that applies to the fuel theory just the same and to many of the answers to most of the threads. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Aug 23rd, 2011, 9:14am on 08/22/11 at 22:29:09, Tompion wrote:
Fair enuf ;), I just didn't remember seeing a test to pump fuel from the tank in the thread, although it will have to be for at least a fewseconds longer than the engine is currently running for. Very True, I haven't seen his car either, but the fuel theory is based on a lot of personal experience with cusomers cars recently............... And the key clue for me is that it has got steadly worse to the point it hardly runs at all now, That's all the symptoms of a load of crud gradually blocking a strainer / filter. Electrical would be more likely to be fine one day, not run at all the next day, then be fine for a few days etc etc, or just run with a misfire etc. Cheers Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Aug 23rd, 2011, 12:16pm Have to agree with him TBH, getting back to basics ~ A. is fuel getting through (pump, pipes etc.) B. are you getting sparks (electrical / sensors) C. are sparks happening at the correct timing (electrical / sensors) If the answer to all of the above is "yes", motor should run. If not, summat else is wrong ;D Also problee helpful to disconnect MAF to force closed loop fuelling (basic default) At the back of my mind I still have a niggle about Throttle Position Sensor, that can cause some weird effects going by previous threads on here (?) It's now 4 months! |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Aug 23rd, 2011, 1:38pm on 08/23/11 at 12:16:54, Mike H wrote:
Hear Hear ;) |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Aug 23rd, 2011, 3:45pm on 08/23/11 at 09:14:23, Dave2302 wrote:
The quantity I gave for mine was "The no pressure reading was pumping into a fuel can, it delivered 5litre’s in 2min 50 seconds." Although in this case I suggested testing it at the return fuel line near the injectors - whilst I didn't mention the reason, the idea was to test the pressure side with the pump working normally. A quick mental calculation of something easy to work out, say 10mpg at 60mph would give an idea of whether there’s enough flow in reserve. Dave H ;) |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Aug 25th, 2011, 1:52pm Quote:
@Tompion will this do the job then? I have contacted serverel ebay ads and some shops and cant find any that connect to the schrader valve so I was thinking of buying the air compresser kit. many thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Aug 27th, 2011, 2:49am There is a proper one on Ebay that says it has a Schrader adapter but it strikes me as a lot of money for a one off 110660063378 I’m certainly not recommending using an airline tyre inflator, you may have petrol spraying in all directions - especially if you pull the trigger & haven’t capped off the hose connector also that type of clip on adaptor isn’t right for the job. The trouble is you don’t know how resistant to petrol the plastic/rubber is, it might be OK or it may fail quickly. There’s a similar tyre inflator on Ebay 120627010026. Mine held up for a while but the seal to the valve eventually melted. I only used it because I had one – I wouldn’t buy one just for this. You could use the gauge & hose from a cheap footpump on ebay like item 190534176652 but it may just melt – just depends what plastic they used. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Sep 1st, 2011, 10:22am on 08/27/11 at 02:49:49, Tompion wrote:
Hi Dave Yes, tire inflator is not a wise idea LOL, but re the footpump parts, I don't think they'll melt in one minute, which is all he'll need to check it ;) It really isn't worth him spending loads on a Fuel Pressure Test kit if he'll never use it again !! Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Sep 4th, 2011, 6:00pm Ok latest update on this. Managed to get a cheap foot pump. The car has not been started for about 2 weeks. The gauge on the foot pump is giving me slightly over 2 bar with the ignition on. Disconnected the foot pump and started the engine. Engine fires straight away and hunts between 250 and 2000 RPM. After about a minute it goes between 250 RPM and 1000 RPM, it does this at a steady pace for about 4 mins then cuts out when the revs get too low. I can start it again and it does the 255 RPM to 1000 RPM thing again until it cuts out. After about 3 restarts it won’t stay on. You can get it to start another 2 times by depressing the throttle when starting. I think it’s stayed on so long because its not been turned over for 2 weeks. I re-connected the foot pump gauge and the pressure was exactly the same, just over 2 bar so I assume the fuel is getting from the tank and through the fuel filter ok? When the ignition is on there is a clicking sound (like Morse code) which I think is coming from the relay for the fans located in front of the coolant tank. I am not sure if this is related as this only started about 6 weeks ago not when the car first started having the problems. While the car was running I did try bending the EDIS wires as suggested by Pedropedro but it made no difference, although I had limited access as the header tank was still in place. I have a new fuel filter which I will fit as soon as my mate lends be his trolley jack and axel stand. Can anyone pleased advise me what the next step I should take? Many thanks for everyone help so far Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Sep 4th, 2011, 11:29pm Does it maintain fuel pressure with the engine running? Ought to be about 2.5 bar at tickover (3 bar if you disconnect the vacuum hose at the fuel pressure regulator – stick your thumb over the hose or it might stall). |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Sep 5th, 2011, 10:23pm Hi Tompion I am sorry I did not test with the engine running. I had 3 old footpumps to try and the first 2 did not work, petrol would spray out from the connections. The 3rd one worked but I was a bit windy of using it with the engine on. I have inspected the 3rd one and I think its not leaking at all, so I can try this with the engine running although I will have to wait a few days as the engine probably wont start now till about wed or thur. Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Sep 6th, 2011, 7:28am Looking back through the posts Highlander said "I'm sending him an IACV, Camshaft sensor, crankshaft sensor and EDIS 6 unit to try". Have you swapped the crankshaft sensor and EDIS? As has been mentioned your problem with the rev counter does suggest a problem with them or the associated wiring as according to no 3 Pulses in the table here: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/instreset.htm the engine speed signal comes from the EDIS on the 24v. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Sep 6th, 2011, 2:20pm on 09/05/11 at 22:23:14, Pianoman wrote:
Hi Tony, Yes you need to see if the Fuel Pressure is dropping off (or going high) as the engine starts messing around / stalling, so leave it connected whilst testing ;) If this test proves OK then you can discount Pump, Fuel Filter, FPR, Fuel Lines etc..................... Then you will really need to look at the live data whilst it is running, to see what signal it is losing / going out of range, whilst it is messing around ;) HTH Cheers Dave Cheers Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Sep 7th, 2011, 9:32pm @Tompion I never received the parts; I will PM Stuart, he’s probably been very busy. @Dave2303 I will do as yourself and Tompion suggested and run the engine with the gauge attached as soon as the car will start. Many thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Sep 11th, 2011, 4:54pm Had the engine running today with the pressure gauge attached. The pressure was slightly over 2 bar when I turn the ignition on. When the engine was running and the revs were steadily moving between 250 on 1000, the gauge was moving between 1.75 bar and 2 bar in time with the engine. When the engine cuts out the pressure stays just under 2bar. After turning the engine off the pressure stays at just under 2 bar, is this normal? I noticed today that the engine would not stay on at all until I put gentle pressure on the throttle to keep the revs on 1500 for about 30 seconds, after that it stayed on. Any further suggestions would be appreciated. Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Sep 11th, 2011, 7:56pm The pressure ought to stay stable, however it may be affected by the inlet vacuum at those revs. It may be worth disconnecting the vacuum hose at the pressure regulator (just a push on) and plugging it & see if the pressure is stable then. Yes it should hold pressure for sometime otherwise the fuel may vaporize & cause difficult starting with a hot engine. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Sep 11th, 2011, 8:04pm Thanks Tompion :-) Sorry if it sounds a daft question but do I remove and plug the vacuum hose at the pressure regulator before I start the engine or when its running? Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Sep 11th, 2011, 9:54pm Is this starting to look like we can eliminate fuel supply problem? I'm keeping in mind original event(s) ~ summat 'broke', same thing (whatever it is) has stayed 'broke' ;D What about idle valve or throttle position sensor not working, or wiring thereto? |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Sep 11th, 2011, 11:03pm on 09/11/11 at 20:04:29, Pianoman wrote:
Doesn’t really matter, it’s just a vacuum link to the inlet manifold (no petrol involved if that’s your concern). My 2.3 runs much the same whether it’s connected or not & won’t generally stop if I don’t plug it/stick my thumb over it. It simply lowers the fuel pressure by about .5 bar when the vacuum is greatest/throttle shut. With your engine struggling to keep going the Idle Air Control Valve is probably trying to keep it under control which MAY mean the vacuum fluctuates which COULD cause the variation in fuel pressure. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Sep 11th, 2011, 11:54pm Yep I agree is looking like Fuel Pressure is fine. OK, OK my "educated guess" was wrong :P but at least we can eliminate that area now ;) Try getting it to start then as soon as it starts, hold the throttle so it is running at 2500 rpm and see if you can keep it running for a few minutes or longer.......... Let us know the result of that :) Cheers Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Sep 15th, 2011, 11:41pm Managed to start the car today. It would not stay running without pressing the throttle but it won’t unless it’s left for over a week. I held the throttle at 2500 RPM and could keep the engine running although it sounded rough. I did notice that whatever revs I held it at, it still did its thing where it goes up and down a further 750 rpm. So when I held it at 2500 it was moving back and forth from 2500 to 3250, just like it does when it stays on and I let it idle. I kept the engine going for about 4 mins but had to stop as the postie arrived. I tried again and someone else arrive so I had to give up, but it looks like I can keep it going for quite a bit although the longer its on, the rougher it sounds. I disconnected the vacuum hose as Tompion suggested and it did not make any difference to the revs going up and down. I could not do this with the pressure gauge as it’s started to leak fuel (but it was a cheap foot pump) Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Sep 16th, 2011, 9:09am Hi Tony, Okay, so I think we can discount Fuel Supply then. As it is sounding rough and hunting, the only way to do this now is for you to get a decent scanner on it and have a look at the live data to see what is going on. A compression test may be a good idea too at this stage We are now looking at a failing elecrical component, bad wiring or a blocked cat. HTH Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Sep 16th, 2011, 9:59am Thanks Dave I have an Alex pepper lead and his ODB2 software. Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Sep 16th, 2011, 4:02pm Update. Things appear to have improved today, maybe something holding the throttle down at 2500 RPM yesterday has helped. Today the car started right away but would not stay on. I adjusted the throttle cable very slightly so the revs did not fall right down and stall the car. Now I was able to drive and reverse the car 10 ft. up and down the driveway. I also noticed that when I held the throttle down to 2500 RPM it stayed at that and did not move up and down the extra 750 RPM it did yesterday. I also noticed that after moving up and down a few times, if I had it in reverse and kept my foot on the brake the rpm stayed at a constant 1000 RPM. I tried this in Drive and it stayed between 1000 and 1100 rpm. I then put it in park and it stayed between 1000 and 1100, but after a min it started going between 1000 and 1500 RPM. I had the car going for about 40 mins. Unfortunately it then cut out, I restarted it several times but it kept staying on for less and less and would not start. I am hoping it’s just run out of fuel as the fuel light was on (although the trip computer said there was enough fuel for 60 miles.)I will get some more later and try it. Any ideas Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Sep 16th, 2011, 6:55pm Stick at least 5 gallons in it Tony, there is no point trying to diagnose any engine problem if the tank is low, it will just make all your tests meaningless as it may be running out of fuel ;) .................. Remember, these engines WILL eat fuel when standing still, revving and testing ;) AFAIK your Alex Pepper gear should give you all the Live Data, what you need to do is run it at 2500 rpm and whilst it is hunting look at all your sensor voltages such as Lambda MAF TPS CPS etc etc, you are looking for a voltage that varies as it hunts, although MAF will do this as revs rise and fall........................ Is it misfiring, or is it just generally rough on all cylinders ? That will help you decide where the fault lies, perhaps get an experiened ear to listen to it ;) I hope that makes sense to you, look at Lambda readings and TPS first, but remember tho that Lambdas will have no effect on the running when Cold, until the ECU switches from "Open Loop" to "Closed Loop" ;) HTH Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Sep 16th, 2011, 9:26pm on 09/16/11 at 18:55:11, Dave2302 wrote:
Could be a clue, seems OK while cold then starts going pear-shaped when warmed up. Weather's cooler now as well so more chance of it being properly cold while it's, er, cold ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Sep 18th, 2011, 1:18pm When I started the car yesterday the pats light was flashing 1.6 This was happening when it did its hunting thing. I started it again and then the pats light was contantly flashing. Today the car wont start at all. With the ignition on the pats is constently flashing. Dont know if this is related, I know 1.6 means faulty connection to ECU. When the car runs I will do the scans. I previously did scans of the RPM, MAF, LTFT and both front lambda's for Scorpio-Man. he checked the scans and said he cound not see a problem. But this was when the car ran normally and cut out when hot. Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Sep 19th, 2011, 9:45am That PATS code could mean water is getting in the Battery side Fusebox and running down onto the ECU or Pats modules / plugs, worth unclipping the glovebox to check for water droplets around the ECU and modules ;) Cheers Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Sep 19th, 2011, 11:16am A nasty thought has just occurred - on 04/09/11 at 12:31:36, Pianoman wrote:
We haven't got a first hand detailed story of what actually happened when it went wrong, only what the mate says. Whatever it was has stubbornly stayed wrong and stubbornly refused to be identified. What we know is engine is very reluctant to run properly, and when it can be persuaded is "dog rough" The nasty thought that occurred was, could it be valve timing has slipped? I don't know enough about the BOB's so don't know how likely that eventuality is - EDIT: - but slack chains & dodgy slippers seems to be a bit of an issue with them (?) |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Simmo on Sep 19th, 2011, 12:59pm It's just occured to me that there is an article Here (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/idleprob.htm)which may have a bearing on this issue having read Mike's response re timing. :) |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Sep 19th, 2011, 1:19pm Good points guys, That's why I asked if it was misfiring, I was thinking along the lines of 1 broken chain = one bank of cylinders not firing. Unless his mate had the engine apart, I doubt that the timing will have "moved", but they can and do run (rough as a bears @rse) with one broken chain ;) However, This can be confirmed by the compression test I suggested earlier ;) This really does need correct diagnosis procedures by someone who knows exactly what they are doing, or else it's gonna end up stupidly expensive or scrapped :( HTH Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Sep 20th, 2011, 12:56am Good news :-) Car would not start today. Pats light continuously flashing with the ignition on. As Dave suggested, I removed the glove box, there does not appear to be any sign of water or damp around the ECU or Pats module. Lightly pressed all the connectors, the car then started but was hunting as it normally does, PATS light flashing 1:6. Switched off, pressed all the connectors and wires firmly in. Car then started and the idle speed stayed at 750 RPM give or take a slight fluctuation. Engine sounded fine. Took it on a test drive around the block and it ran normal until I had done 11 miles then the rev counter began to dance about and generally show about 2000 RPM higher the actual revs. (When it does this the engine does not follow). The car then stalled, but would start again. I think it stalled because the rev counter is confusing the gearbox. I went home then because I suspect this is not good for the gearbox. Back on the driveway, the car would still start ok and keep running. Since I have had the car the rev counter always went crazy after about 20 mins, but the engine always ran normal and gear changes where normal. Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Sep 20th, 2011, 10:27am Right, excellent, so now you need to carefully wiggle the wiring near each plug and if it cuts out, you have found the dodgy bit. Have a careful look to make sure there's not a bare wire shorting or one broken / pulled out of a plug. If all is okay, a squirt of electrical cleaner in each plug and then make sure they are all clipped home firmly, that should do the trick ;) Rev Counter wise, that should not confuse the gearbox if the engine is running okay, a look at live data engine RPM will tell you if the ECU is seeing RPM okay, while Rev Counter is playing up................. Don't forget they can be a bit prone to stalling untl they have completed a couple of "OBD Trips" to re learn their settings ;) (Around 15 to 20 miles is an "OBD Trip") HTH Regards Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Sep 20th, 2011, 1:50pm on 04/11/11 at 21:58:22, Tompion wrote:
As mentioned back on the first page you can see the desired revs/actual revs on the enhanced page of the Alex Pepper software, presumably if the ECU is receiving false information it will be trying to set the revs to that - which could cause the fluctuating tickover. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Sep 20th, 2011, 4:00pm Eureka, leccy gremlins raising their ugly bonces again then, so there you go. http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/th_thumbsup.gif Little barstewards them leccy gremlins ;D I agree with Dave 3202 most often just unplugging a connector and putting it back will clear a bad contact (you've found that out just by wiggling it), contact cleaner is a good idea as well. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Sep 20th, 2011, 4:04pm Appendix ~ these leccy gremlins have put the car off the road for nearly 6 months, bet they're so smug ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Dave2302 on Sep 20th, 2011, 7:41pm LOL Don't talk to me about wiring, I've started wiring the Puma today, but I'm at that stage where I have the whole interior loom untaped and I am snipping out wires I don't need (speakers, airbag abs etc), and adding extra wires for the new rally based stuff....................... Example left in the n/s/rear speaker wires in but re routed them up the n/s screen pillar to give a + and - feed to the intercom unit, will connect the 2 ends at the old "Radio" end to the radios earth and Ign pos1 +, so intercom is now fed by the old stereo circuit & fuse ;) ..................... Next example, purchased 2 front spot lamp switches from a hi spec model and wiring these into full beam circuit, dash illumination circuit(so they light up at night), and then 2 fresh leads from them to the engine compartment where the Spot lamp relays will live ;) All this requires a lot of thinking in advance............. My poor old brain is fried, and I haven't even started on the engine loom yet LOL Cheers Dave |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Sep 26th, 2011, 2:55pm I am away till Sat so will test connections to pats and ecu as well as cleaning them and checking RPM with ODB2 lead then. I have one quick question, my servisol super 10 contact cleaner says dont use on live electric devices, so should I be disconnecting the battery before using this on all the connectors to the ECU and PATS units? Thanks Tony Ps is there any other connecters I sould spray while at it |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Octavian_P on Oct 7th, 2011, 5:07pm It would be safer to use the spray with the battery disconnected as you reduce the risk of making a temporary short circuit with the liquid. As for not spraying the "live" wires is also a caution as this could get inflammable from an electric arc. You must definitely check and clean the EDIS connector. As i have described in this topic 2 pages back, i had the same problem ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Oct 8th, 2011, 12:05pm "Live electric devices" more likely means the mains ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Oct 13th, 2011, 3:53pm I have taken the CCM out and cleaned all the connectors with switch cleaner. The flat muti-plug that goes into the CCM has several chaffed wires. The muti-plug into the bottom module does not feel that tight and there is evidence of a previous wire (s) been taped up or repaired. See my picture http://i56.tinypic.com/zyj3hi.jpg How do I get the bottom module out (is this the ECU) It looks like one rivet has been drilled out Many thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Oct 13th, 2011, 4:53pm Have a look at PCM remove here: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/emmanuals.htm |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Oct 13th, 2011, 9:09pm Ah-ha evidence of previous "repair", and following your earlier post about disturbing the plugs think we may be getting somewhere at last. Are the chaffed wires down to the copper? Will need taping also check out what's under the already taped up ones. What's causing this guys, vibrating on metal edges? |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Oct 13th, 2011, 9:34pm Hi Mike There are about 3 wires with the sheiding rubbed away (this is on the flat muti-plug that goes into the CCM) The coating has chaffed away at almost the same point on each wire. I think they were shorting out against the black metal cover with the rivets in. I am not sure how they could get chaffed, maybe the back of the glove box pushes against them ? Does anyone know where these wires go ? I have taped them up now. I am not 100% sure there has been a previous repair, but there is electrical tape around some of the wires above the PCM and one rivets been drilled out so it looks like somones been there before. I will check it as soon as I get the PCM out. Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Matt on Oct 13th, 2011, 11:53pm Hi tony When you get the ecu out post up the wire/pin numbers of any damaged or tampered with wires. Dave2302 and myself must know every pins function off by heart now thanks to a project weve been doing over on ford power lol ;D There is a number next to the outer cables once you take the black plastic cap off, they go in order so just count back for cables in the middle, youll.see what i mean when you get there lol |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Oct 14th, 2011, 3:12pm on 10/13/11 at 21:34:44, Pianoman wrote:
That's sort of what I was thinking as well. Maybe some kind of sturdy tape around the whole lot? Anyway interesting if frustrating exercise getting to the bottom of this; those of us who predicted leccy gremlins are we allowed to gloat? lol ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Oct 15th, 2011, 5:06pm Do I need to drill out all 6 rivets to remove the PCM.? I have taken the top 3 out but it wont budge, I looks like the bootom part of the bracket is connected to the top. Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Oct 15th, 2011, 6:09pm Ok worked it out, I did need to remove all 6 rivets. Removed the rivets and undone the 10 mm nut to remove the multi-plug. There was also a loose nut inside the black plastic cover. All wires looked ok. The other wires higher up were also ok, what I thought was a previous repair job was simply wires wrapped in insulating tape. My PCM has a blue plug on the back with the word superchips on it. This pushes into the PCM. It was not on properly and the connectors all quite corroded, see my pics. What is this connection for and could this have anything to do with my problem? http://i55.tinypic.com/2qiwe4h.jpg http://i52.tinypic.com/907pxg.jpg I have cleaned all plugs with switch cleaner. I have not put everything back as the light was fading and I want to double check all the wires first. Should I spray inside the PCM or CCM while its out of the car? Just looked up superchips and it looks like a performance mod Many thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Matt on Oct 15th, 2011, 6:18pm Yep superchips is a performance company, didnt know they did one for the scorpio, rare bit of kit you got there ;) |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Oct 15th, 2011, 6:28pm It takes it up to 214 BHP :) |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Oct 15th, 2011, 8:33pm Well that was unexpected! So someone has been in here before. With modifications on 10/15/11 at 18:09:07, Pianoman wrote:
ARRRGH!! http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/banghead.gif |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Oct 15th, 2011, 8:35pm I think the PCM has been taken out to modify if to accept the superchip. Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by gozz on Oct 15th, 2011, 9:10pm Blimey,what a pig's ear for sod all extra power :o,some poor bloke paid good money for that,dear oh dear,and you reap the resulting aggravation !!! ::) |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Simmo on Oct 16th, 2011, 7:53am The level of corrosion would indicate dampness. Is there any other sign of water ingress in that area. There is a known issue with water getting in from the large rubber grommet which carries the loom from behind the auxillary fuse box in to the glovebox area. IF the grommet is disturbed and not correctly replaced water will run in and, usually, manifest itself by soaking the carpet in the passenger footwell.....having run over the 'electronics' beforehand!. ::) |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Oct 16th, 2011, 11:52am Good point. http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/th_thumbsup.gif Does explains the sequence of events, corrosion takes the upper hand, then car starts behaving oddly. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Oct 16th, 2011, 1:48pm I agree with Simmo, it does look like water ingress but I cannot find any damp anywhere and its rained here all week. The passenger footwell is bone dry, same for all the cladding around the glove box area. This is something I checked for when I bought the car. Maybe in the past the car had blocked drain holes or something? Will it harm the PCM if I open it and spray it with contact cleaner ? Should I try to replace the PCM ? Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Matt on Oct 16th, 2011, 2:39pm Hi Tony id just put a bit on a rag and clean the contacts that the super chips module is plugged into, the ECU's case only bolts together so could be worth popping the lid off and having a look at the board, if its mankey give it a clean with the fast drying type of electrical cleaner |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Simmo on Oct 16th, 2011, 3:36pm If it helpsThis (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pcmrepair.htm) is what it should look like. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Oct 16th, 2011, 4:02pm Thanks Matt/Simmo I opened to ECU and it’s in perfect condition; It looks like it was just the contacts the superchip connects to that had corrosion/oxidization. I have cleaned these and will put everything back now. http://i56.tinypic.com/4zuxb7.jpg http://i54.tinypic.com/anhijn.jpg Thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Oct 16th, 2011, 6:05pm on 10/16/11 at 13:48:23, Pianoman wrote:
OK more likely just condensation. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Oct 16th, 2011, 6:16pm on 10/16/11 at 15:36:30, Simmo wrote:
Looks quite different, being for TDi? |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Matt on Oct 16th, 2011, 6:20pm The TD's didnt use a ford ecu to start with, it was a VM ecu ;), hence early TD dont have PATS or the Trip computer |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Oct 16th, 2011, 6:21pm OK then! |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Oct 16th, 2011, 9:47pm It’s looking good :-) Put everything back, noticed a slightly chaffed wire on the main PCM loom but it was not in contact with any other chaffed/bare wires., although I suppose in theory its possible it was in contact with loose nut that was in there. Taped this wire up. Started the car, revs were all over the place for the first min then it settled done to around 750 RPM. Took the car on a 32 mile drive and it ran perfect. Rev counter behaved perfect, got it home and left the engine running for 5 mins and the revs stayed constantly at 750 RPM, no fluctuation at all. I have noticed that there is no ding when I open the doors with the lights on or try to program the remote, but I am not sure this is related to the CCM/PCM wiring. Will take it another test run tomorrow Thanks Tony ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Simmo on Oct 17th, 2011, 7:55am Fingers crossed then!!. ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Oct 17th, 2011, 11:45am Well done congratulations http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/clap.gif Oh no, no chimes! http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/banghead.gif Catastrophe ;D Problee another corroded connector maybe and you disturbed it Again underlines the fact that these cars are utterly dependant on good wiring and connections |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Oct 23rd, 2011, 1:03am I have now taken the car out twice on two 10 mile runs and it’s been perfect. I took it out today and after about 13 miles I floored the throttle and let the car do its cozzie thing, after doing this twice the rev counter started doing its dancing around thing like it used to do. The actual engine revs were fine with the car still running fine and changing gear ok. When I got home I ran a scan. There were no error codes. The RPM data was showing the car idling between 745 and 760 RPM, in the enhanced data the desired idle RPM was 720. The rev counter was showing 2200 to 2800. I am assuming that when the car was revved up, the vibration has moved a loose wire/connection. I don’t think it’s the ECU/CCM connections. Could it just be a loose connection to the rev counter? I checked my notes from when I bought the car and it’s never made a ding noise when I open the door with the lights on, so I think this is a separate issue. Many thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Oct 23rd, 2011, 12:40pm OK sounds like dashboard problem of some sort, might have corrosion issues in there as well. That's got a circuit board and it's own computer even. I think. So probably looking at a dash out job to have a proper investigation. But at least the motor works properly http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/hyper.gif |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Oct 23rd, 2011, 12:45pm on 10/23/11 at 01:03:36, Pianoman wrote:
Doubt it, that's what I meant, the needle instruments are just electrical gauges controlled by the dash's own computer system. I think. I.e. rev counter is not a separate thing by itself. If I'm talking cobblers someone else will come up with better info ;D |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Tompion on Oct 23rd, 2011, 3:52pm Check pulses when the rev counter is playing up using the instrument diagnostic: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/instreset.htm If that is incorrect it could be a fault with the cluster or the signal. If pulses are correct then a poor connection between the revcounter & the board is possible. The drives for the gauges are attached to the dials & just plug into the circuit board. The circuit board is sandwiched between the case & the back so if you remove the back of the cluster you should be able to lift the board (taking care not to strain the ribbon cables) this should disturb the connections to the 4 dials & hopefully clean the contacts. The gauges have 2 coils at right angles to each other with two terminals for each coil. If you think of the terminals like compass points if you connect a battery NS the needle points N SN the needle points S EW the needle points E WE the needle points W By juggling the voltage & polarity to both coils you can make the needle point where you want. |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Pianoman on Dec 23rd, 2011, 11:03am I would like to say that this car has now been running perfect for the last 6 weeks and has passed its MOT. It looks like the problem was one or a combination of the following. 3 of the wires going into the CCM were chafed and touching the metal cover of the CCM/ECU (Can anyone explain how they could get chaffed at this point?) Loose multi-plug going into ECU. It also had a loose screw inside The car had a Superchip mod plugged into the ECU. The contacts were corroded. The rev counter still goes mad after about 15 miles but thanks to Tompion’s info, this looks like a loose connection behind the cluster. I will strip the dash in the summer. Hope all this helps someone else. I would like to give a big thank you to everyone who helped sort this, I have also made a donation. Many thanks Tony |
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Title: Re: Help AA Man’s tampered with my idle speed Post by Mike H on Dec 23rd, 2011, 12:59pm http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/th_thumbsup.gif |
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