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        General >> Problems >> engine and auto box problems
        
(Message started by: Andycan on May 8^th, 2011, 3:45pm)

Title: engine and auto box problems
Post by Andycan on May 8^th, 2011, 3:45pm

Hi again. Having just bought my scorpio 2.0 16 v I have concentrated on getting it through the test ( Wednesday) but today I checked all the oil levels and water levels as I was going out. She started up ok and had a nice tickover but didn't want to go into gear for about 10 seconds and then thumped in. Got to the end of the road and on pulling out the gears were seeming to slip until they thumped in again.
this kept happening for a few miles when the engine started to seem to loose power and it seemed to be firing on 2 or 3 cylinders for a mile or so. Could I have disturbed anything? Or any ideas what or why these things all happened at once?

Oh just another small thing the cruise control doesn't seem to be working at the moment but I can't find a fuse or relay for it so again any ideas?

Thanks Andy

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by lleewar on May 8^th, 2011, 6:06pm

Andy, take out the gearbox dipstick and smell the fluid and check it's colour. If it smells burnt and is a dark brown colour, the fluid and filter will need changing as soon as possible or we are talking about a gearbox exchange. It should only take around two seconds for the gear to engage and not thump in. Lee

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Simmo on May 9^th, 2011, 8:40am

Check out This page (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/faultfinds.htm) Scroll down to Transmission. Have you checked out the level of the gearbox oil?. There is a proper procedure for this and it has to be done with the engine running?.
The relay for the Cruise Control- (Speed control System) is R 17,coloured green and is in the 'flap' in the roof of the glovebox. The first thing to check is that the cable is attached to the throttle linkage. It is only a push on 'banjo' fitting and can get dislodged. The cable runs to the motor alongside the FOS headlight. ;)
According to the Wiring Diagrams,supplied by Snoopy, the chart shows that fuse 37 in the Auxillary Fusebox, is that which covers the Speed Control System. The Handbook shows it as Engine Management System so it is unlikely to be the cause if the car runs ok. ;)

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Andycan on May 9^th, 2011, 10:17am

Thanks for the info I get lost looking for it.
I want to do a major service on it so can anyone tell me where the gearbox filter is please? And the filler and drain holes are Thanks

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Simmo on May 9^th, 2011, 10:22am

Andy. Have a look at This page (http://search.atomz.com/search/?sp-q=auto+gearbox&sp-a=sp100172f5) and select the appropriate page(s). That came up as a result of a search for 'Auto box'. Click on the Ford Scorpio banner at the top of any page. That will take you to the 'Home' page. Scroll to the bottom and insert whatever in the box at the bottom. There are also the 'buttons' on the left which bring up things like the 'Fault Finder'. HTH. :)

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Andycan on May 9^th, 2011, 11:13am

Update there is no green relay only a yellow one and a slot for another one in the glove box. The gearbox oil is slightly brownand has a very slight smell of burning. I am having to do this whilst babysitting a 2 year old and a 6 month old all day for the next few days so it may take some time.

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Mike H on May 9^th, 2011, 1:21pm

As you've only just acquired the car (I think that's right?) check everything and renew where necessary. This includes oils, coolant etc., also all filters, MAF etc.

The MAF plays a quite profound part in autobox behaviour (as I found out ;D ) 'cause it's the PCM that actually changes gears, that means it needs to be given accurate sensor readings

NB: handbook says on first selecting a gear with the lever shouldn't take longer than 4 seconds to engage

HTH

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Simmo on May 9^th, 2011, 2:58pm

A good start, and a quick job whilst the little ones are snoozing....hopefully...is to Clean the MAF (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cleanmaf.htm) with carb cleaner. As Mike says it is a major player. ;)

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Stixy on May 9^th, 2011, 4:24pm

Is it still doing it ? or is it every now and then ?

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Andycan on May 9^th, 2011, 5:26pm

It has been doing it for the past 2 days but I have cleaned the maff sensor now and have a new air filter on order which will arrive tomorrow so I will try it out then.
I have looked at the gearbox diagrams but still can't see where you refill it with oil but I do need new glasses lol.

I was amased that it needs 10 litres of gearbox oil and my local stockist only sells the correct oil for the scorpio in 1 litre bottles at £8 a litre and has to order it as they only hold 2 litres at a time.

Will keep you all posted as I am bound to get stuck as the scorpio is so different to all the other cars I have worked on.

Thanks for all the help and info so far.

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Stixy on May 9^th, 2011, 5:32pm

Try Linco's in Horncastle for the ATF 01507 527749

next time it does it switch off and restart and see if it still does it . what i have found is if for some reason it selects drive with a thump it will go into limp mode and misfire when reved

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Tompion on May 9^th, 2011, 6:29pm

Have you had the cruise control working previously?

Auto fluid goes in through the dipstick hole.

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Mike H on May 9^th, 2011, 6:41pm

"lose power, thumping gear changes", sounds like what I used to get when the PCM threw in the towel and presumably went into limp home mode, all goes a bit weird then.

Like Stixy says if you stop and turn it off, it's like a reset.

Also thumping when you first select suggests idle speed is a bit too high.

When it's playing up is the green "O/D" light @ bottom left of dashboard flashing? I used to get this when it went into LOS (limp home mode)

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Andycan on May 10^th, 2011, 11:03am

I was told the cruise control was working but someone else told me that the relay was blue I think and in the glove compartment but there is only a yellow relay there and a space for another one so I assume the relay is missing.

I have not tried to turn the engine off and start it again but I will try it after fitting the new air filter which arrives this afternoon.

Mike it looses gear when at traffic lights and road junctions when still in drive then thumps into gear after I put my foot on the throttle. The O/D light didn't flash but I did think it might have gone into limp mode but it would go over 35 suggesting it didn't.

I have found a part used dextron 2 bottle in the boot so it could be the oil is contaminated? Or when the car hasn't been run the gearbox dipstick shows it is full so maybe it is overfull?

When filling the gearbox with oil how do you know it is full to the right level? On the capacities page here it suggests it takes over 10 litres but the local parts shop recon it takes just over 9 litres.

It looks like this scorp has been abused so I am trying to work my way through a major service on it to try and avoid a major breakdown.

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Highlander on May 10^th, 2011, 11:11am

Check the oil level properly buy following these instructions:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/autogearbox.htm

It may have a leak and just be low on oil

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Tompion on May 10^th, 2011, 2:30pm

Whether or not you have relays at all in the glove compartment seems to vary. My car has no relays at all in the glovebox & it has working cruise control.
I believe the switch located behind the brake pedal that cancels the CC can get misplaced & prevent it from working.

Just in case you’ve not used cruise before, you first have to enable it with the upper button on the left of the wheel, nothing happens until you set it with the + or - buttons on the right - you need to be above approx 25mph.

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Andycan on May 10^th, 2011, 5:22pm

I will have to check that out Tompion.

After cleaning the maff and putting a new air filter in it took a while for the gearbox to go into drive and reverse and whilst it was deciding to go into drive or reverse the n/s mirror kept wiggling. After 5 minutes of changing from drive into reverse and back I took it for a test drive to get everything warmed up properly. She drove perfectly. Having warmed her up I checked the gearbox oil to find the dipstick dry. After a hour of cooling the dipstick had some oil on it but it was very thin so I will still carry out a filter and oil change asap.

After having it standing there for 2 days I I noticed a damp patch on n/s under the bonnet. On closer inspection the n/s of the steering rack and everything upto the tyre was covered in light oil yet all the oil levels are ok except the gearbox so am going to have to check all the n/s and pipes to try and find what is leaking and from where. I think this might have been a lemon but I will do my best to bring it upto better than showroom condition but it might take a while lol.

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Mike H on May 10^th, 2011, 6:56pm

on 05/10/11 at 17:22:50, Andycan wrote:

After cleaning the maff and putting a new air filter in it took a while for the gearbox to go into drive and reverse and whilst it was deciding to go into drive or reverse the n/s mirror kept wiggling.

Ah 'cause the n/s door mirror dips down when you select reverse. Which is normal. Well it is for an Ultima :)

Quote:

After 5 minutes of changing from drive into reverse and back I took it for a test drive to get everything warmed up properly. She drove perfectly.

Good....

Quote:

Having warmed her up I checked the gearbox oil to find the dipstick dry.

Deffo not right ~ think when it's running the oil is sucked up to fill the converter isn't that right chaps? Which is why you have to check the level with engine running, otherwise it looks 'over full' (but it isn't really)

Quote:

After a hour of cooling the dipstick had some oil on it but it was very thin so I will still carry out a filter and oil change asap.

I think so because....

on 05/10/11 at 11:03:33, Andycan wrote:

Mike it looses gear when at traffic lights and road junctions when still in drive then thumps into gear after I put my foot on the throttle.

.... suggests fluid level is too low, but I'm guessing ~ (mine didn't do that BTW). Although ATF is pretty thin anyway as oils go, the important aspects are the colour and that there are no bits in it. I had bits in mine fortunately a fluid and filter change sorted that.

Quote:

The O/D light didn't flash but I did think it might have gone into limp mode but it would go over 35 suggesting it didn't.

I think if it goes into LOS O/D flashes, at least if the PCM thinks it's a transmission problem. Low fluid is maybe not enough ;D

Quote:

It looks like this scorp has been abused so I am trying to work my way through a major service on it to try and avoid a major breakdown.

I was going to say what tends to happen is if previous owner(s) don't do the necessary elementary servicing things and just keep leaving it, it may be no more than simple neglect ~ that's how it was in my case anyway, unfortunately took me a while to learn about all the various bits and pieces, e.g. it was only last year I found out it had cabin filters! Which were black BTW lol ;D

Quote:

After having it standing there for 2 days I I noticed a damp patch on n/s under the bonnet. On closer inspection the n/s of the steering rack and everything upto the tyre was covered in light oil

Maybe rack is leaking, they can do that, not unusual (lots of threads here about same), not difficult to fix, best way is get a recon or a new rack.

Quote:

I think this might have been a lemon but I will do my best to bring it upto better than showroom condition

Hopefully it's just a case of neglect like I said, bear in mind these cars are getting long in the tooth now so you have to expect the odd problem just due to age. ;D

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Mike H on May 10^th, 2011, 7:00pm

PS: have we mentioned coil pack wiring yet? Have a look at the wires under the top plastic engine cover, they get cooked by the heat, it's a well known 16V weak spot.

While in that area be a good idea to pull the spark plugs as well to make sure they haven't unobtrusively worn out, gaps can get so big you wonder how it still works ;D

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Stixy on May 10^th, 2011, 7:10pm

Have a close look at the oil cooler pipes they run under the bellhousing then down the exhaust side of the engine and can rust through and if its rusted a pinhole it will spray oil

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Mike H on May 10^th, 2011, 7:19pm

Good mention http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/th_thumbsup.gif

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Scorpio_Mike on May 10^th, 2011, 8:07pm

on 05/10/11 at 19:10:05, Stixy wrote:

Have a close look at the oil cooler pipes they run under the bellhousing then down the exhaust side of the engine and can rust through and if its rusted a pinhole it will spray oil

Similar set up on the Mk3 Granada - had this happen to mine. The metal pipe between 2 rubber pipes had rusted through. Local garage fixed it with some metal tube and hose clips - worked just fine, no leaks. Still OK when I sold the car a couple of years later.

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Andycan on May 10^th, 2011, 11:28pm

I will check everything that has been mentioned tomorrow if it is not too wet.

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Mike H on May 11^th, 2011, 10:24am

In any case it's a good idea to spray the metal pipes with .....

... can't think of its name .... http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/unsure.gif

........ waxoyl! http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/biggrin.gif

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Andycan on May 11^th, 2011, 5:59pm

The cruise control switch on the brake pedal is in position and seems to be making contact with the pedal about a quarter to half inch before the pedal stops traveling upwards.

I found a rubber pipe where the pictures show there should be a metal pipe from auto box to radiator at the n/s front. when the engine is running it starts to leak so I hope this is the problem of the loss of gearbox oil and that I will be able to make a permenant repair but I am not happy with the ford dealers over inflated prices.

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Stixy on May 11^th, 2011, 6:11pm

I use 10mm fuel injection hose to repair oil cooler lines

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Andycan on May 11^th, 2011, 7:44pm

Would it be a good idea to replace the metal hoses with all 10mm fuel injection hose or just the holed section?

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Stixy on May 11^th, 2011, 7:50pm

I would just repair the damaged section as the rest could be ok

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Andycan on May 12^th, 2011, 11:45am

Damaged section now repaired and looking good. Whoever did the last repair used brake rubber hose but the rest of the metal pipe looks almost rust free. it went on the bend in the metal pipe where it goes up to the radiator at the front.
Thanks for all the advice and suggestions.

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Mike H on May 12^th, 2011, 4:30pm

I just realised this is why the transmission fluid is low

Doh .. http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/homer.gif

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Andycan on May 12^th, 2011, 6:21pm

Yep and according to a ford gearbox specialist the system is designed to play up if you loose any fluid so as to save the gearbox.

Title: Re: engine and auto box problems
Post by Mike H on May 12^th, 2011, 6:31pm

That makes sense....