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        General >> Problems >> HELP! engine just dies
        
(Message started by: pedropedro on Jul 22^nd, 2011, 6:11pm)

Title: HELP! engine just dies
Post by pedropedro on Jul 22^nd, 2011, 6:11pm

started new thread but relates to earlier one 2.3

...pump and gauge had failed sorted loose plug, all was fine (i thought) ...then it died again today...so seems like x2 separate problems

I am almost certain its the edis unit ..I removed from wing and it restarted ..are these known to fail intermittently in other words just die spontaneously then work ok ?? ...I have new one ...but loathe to drive car until i find exactly the cause of this any help greatly appreciated

the wiring was ok as far as i can see ...john

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by Mike H on Jul 22^nd, 2011, 6:20pm

Isn't there something about that elsewhere? Rhetorical question .... as in wiring has to be good ~ came up to do with some sort of damage to the offside front (?)

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by Highlander on Jul 22^nd, 2011, 7:06pm

Wiring I'd guess, usually when I see a failed EDIS its totally dead.

Try swapping the EDIS and see though

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by pedropedro on Jul 22^nd, 2011, 7:19pm

problem is it's working fine now

history.. it was dead, i removed checked edis wiring plug etc rconnected worked fine ,, left running for 5 mins died......repeated above checked all again reconnected works fine now....just got new edis unit ...but how do i know whether thats the problem

I drive long distances and cant risk it just dying ..apart from the tow truck issues etc ,,,i was in outside lane motorway and it stopped dead,no warning no spluttering etc, no power steering etc..thats what happened last week..scary

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by Stixy on Jul 22^nd, 2011, 7:25pm

Is you engine loom in good condition ?

The edis needs a signal from the crank sensor ,the signal wires run through the top engine loom to the multiplug under the pas pipes a bad poor or oily conection will stop it running .

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by Andycan on Jul 22^nd, 2011, 7:28pm

I wonder if there is a broken wire that looks ok? that could run ok when the ends made contact but heat or bumps could dislodge it and cause the engine to die?
I am sure it would show up if using a curcuit tester on the wires

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by pedropedro on Jul 22^nd, 2011, 8:03pm

the crank senor has been changed but that was the first port of call...i thought the ford edis unit would still behave without a crank sensor signal ......maybe wrong .......the top loom has been changed

where are those crank sensor wires ? what do you mean under the gas pipes ?? any ideas really needed and appreciated...

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by gozz on Jul 22^nd, 2011, 8:26pm

P ower
A ssisted
S teering

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by Mike H on Jul 22^nd, 2011, 8:26pm

Google 'edis unit ford' (anybody) ~ looks complicated!

Seems to me it needs the crank sensor to know whether the engine is actually turning, if no signal, it must assume engine is stopped so no sparks, which seems reasonable.

Actually reminds me a mate years ago had this problem, might have been a Fiesta or somesuch, duff crank sensor that was, so no sparks, it do not run!

PS: seems like the signal is low Voltage as well so good wiring / connections probs essential. Yep need to check out all the associated wiring I think.

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by pedropedro on Jul 22^nd, 2011, 8:36pm

its very complicated..i know the wires are the bn/rd and wh/rd for the crank sensor but the wires from the edis plug disappear into a loom about 10" down from the plug ...when engine running as it is now I can bend all the wires from the plug and the loom and nothing will make it stop....so up a gum tree as the say

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by Stixy on Jul 22^nd, 2011, 9:12pm

The crank sensor wires pas through the top engine loom to the black multiplug on the inner wing in this plug it uses gold pins ,then it runs from the other half of the multiplug to the edis unit .

The edis unit tells the EEC-V that the engine is turning also its position and how fast is turning so the EEC-V can inject fuel and then tells the edis unit when to fire the plugs .

So no crank signal means no spark of fuel injection also if the EEC-V cant see a crank signal it will cut power to the fuel pump just the initial "prime" when the ignition is first turned on .

Next time it cuts out get sombody to listen closly to the fuel injectors while cranking the engine to see if they are clicking

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by pedropedro on Jul 22^nd, 2011, 10:17pm

the injectors are dead when the problem occurs...there are x2 multi plug connectors on the inner wing ..which is the one in question?

why do you ask ? are the injectors controlled by the edi unit as well as generating the ignition signal

if the injectors are dead, and they are when fault happens, what does that tell you ?

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by Stixy on Jul 23^rd, 2011, 12:47am

The multiplug is the black one

Normaly edis units either work or they dont so its difficult to say

Keep a spare edis unit in the car and next time the fault happens plug the spare in and if the car still doesnt start you have a problem with the crank sensor or the wiring between the sensor and edis unit or the sheilded wire from the edis module to the EEC-V

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by pedropedro on Jul 23^rd, 2011, 5:29am

there are x2 black multi plugs side by side...which one is the one that carrys the crank sensor wiring please

you also said check to hear the injectors when it dies....should they be running if the edis has failed?

what controls the injectors ?

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by Mike H on Jul 23^rd, 2011, 12:00pm

No he means, when it "dies", need to turn it on the starter and you or somebody else try to listen to the injector rail and hear if the injector valves are clicking. Possibly difficult to do!

I presume then that:

A. if injectors click, then EDIS / crank sensor OK, so must be something else

B. if not clicking, EDIS / crank sensor not telling computer that engine is actually turning over. So fault in that area

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by Mike H on Jul 23^rd, 2011, 12:03pm

PS: also, and at risk of sounding like a scratched record ;D what is the state of spark plugs / ignition coils & HT leads ?

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by Tompion on Jul 23^rd, 2011, 12:22pm

on 07/23/11 at 05:29:20, pedropedro wrote:

there are x2 black multi plugs side by side...which one is the one that carrys the crank sensor wiring please

The multiplug is the one that feeds the black box that has the injector connectors on it.
It’s the cut off loom here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/dohcloom.htm

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by pedropedro on Jul 23^rd, 2011, 12:35pm

so i assume its the one towards the rear of the car...i really need some help here...ive opened the wiring from the edis and there is a 3 core cable in black sleeving with r/w p/w and bk/white wires all rotten, all shorting...if i knew where they went i could run a new cable..ive tried buzzing through to the large rear connector the lower half the socket but cant find them

does anyone know where they go or has done this already ..could really help...

ive checked right down to the join as it goes under the wing and they are rotten ...any help appreciated

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by pedropedro on Jul 23^rd, 2011, 12:49pm

it looks like that cable runs to the ecu any idea how i can get to it

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by Mike H on Jul 23^rd, 2011, 1:12pm

on 07/23/11 at 12:35:08, pedropedro wrote:

ive opened the wiring from the edis and there is a 3 core cable in black sleeving with r/w p/w and bk/white wires all rotten, all shorting...if i knew where they went i could run a new cable..ive tried buzzing through to the large rear connector the lower half the socket but cant find them

Reckon you found your problem! Sounds like the 3-core shielded set, diagram here:
https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=eb36f845ea9b8fb6&id=EB36F845EA9B8FB6%21146#

I got white/red white/violet white/black, outer sleeve black, goes to Powertrain Control Module (PCM) which is up under the dash above the glovebox.

However it's not like a bit of 3-core mains cable as it's got an outer earth screen connected to chassis, need to go to Maplin Electonics or somebody for a length of multi-way screened cable

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by pedropedro on Jul 23^rd, 2011, 3:54pm

yes ..thats the problem ...but how do you get to that ? gues pull the ecu out ....anyone know any short cuts?

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by Mike H on Jul 23^rd, 2011, 8:51pm

OK I found this:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/electrical/intbasic/CentralContModule.pdf

Also couple of photos here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pcmrepair.htm

Thought there were photos of underside of dashboard in a topic but can't find them, to do with PATS? Last year sometime?

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by pedropedro on Jul 23^rd, 2011, 9:41pm

thanks for looking...I am nearly there...

1/ cut the x3 wires in the sleeved screened cable 3" back from edis plug...2/open glove compartment remove ecu x2 drill pop rivets ...open plug find the screened cable cut 3" back from plug......3/run screened 3 core wire round front of car through battery box and grommet on left .......a bit messy to do .wish it had been posted previously

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by Mike H on Jul 24^th, 2011, 1:37pm

You could be the first! ;D

You are soldering the wires together I am guessing?

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by pedropedro on Jul 24^th, 2011, 1:57pm

all sorted thank goodness....new 3 core screened cable from edis to ecu plug....ran round front of car then through battery compartment hole through grommet into wiring....yes soldered ?

the old wires had fractured then shorted to ground (screen) i suspect ...if i had cut the screen at the ecu probably engine would have run , as a stop gap .

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by Mike H on Jul 24^th, 2011, 5:07pm

Except it's screened to keep out electrical interference.

Well done! So it works now?

Title: Re: HELP! engine just dies
Post by pedropedro on Jul 24^th, 2011, 5:21pm

i realise that ! that just saying it could solve a problem short term..the cables would still be screened just not earthed

yes working fine...its been a tiresome week end but had no choice was resigned to having it towed away