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        General >> Problems >> 2,3 doesn't start any more
        
(Message started by: nobbel on Oct 27^th, 2011, 6:00pm)

Title: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Oct 27^th, 2011, 6:00pm

Hi,
I#m back again with a problem. Yesterday I changed the waterpump. Afterwards I filled in some coolant and started the engine. It ran with no problems. After a minute or so, about 1L of coolant came out, caused by the air in the system. After that, the engine ran like a bag filled with nuts and bolts and backfired like hell. I tried to keep the engine running but stopped that when I saw that the cat overheated with a nearlylight red colour. Today I tried to start the engine - no way! The starter motor works, but there is no ignition. I cleaned and dried everything, changes EDIS, opened and cleaned the main plug etc. - no reaction. No sparks, nothing. The main wiring-loom is in good condition. I couldn't see any cracks or so. The safety switch is in. By the way: I have a special power-chip, made by "Suhe". Has it been killed? If yes, I could pull it off. Would that work?
What can I do? Is this the ticket to the boneyard?
nobbel :(

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Nov 1^st, 2011, 7:03am

Hi,
newest news from the centre of darkness: it is a shortcut in the line between EDIS an ignition-coil "A" (the first in front). Now we have to search where it is exactly, because I have a warranty for the motor-wiring-loom. If the shortcut is between the ignition-coil and the main plug - fine. If not - that means between main plug and EDIS: :(

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Mike H on Nov 1^st, 2011, 10:34am

Can I ask, re "1L of coolant came out", came out of where?

You say "put some coolant in", does this mean you didn't completely fill it?

Sounds like when it came out it soaked some cables / connectors and so causing a short or shorts in the electrics, EDIS and wiring is in the area below header tank so if it came out of there that would make perfect sense.

Not sure offhand what antifreeze does to electrical wiring and electronics and wiring insulation but I would have preferred to avoid it! ;D

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Mike H on Nov 1^st, 2011, 10:36am

PS: not sure the warranty will stand up if you've soaked the loom with coolant which is what it sounds like.

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Nov 1^st, 2011, 11:52am

Hi,
coolant came out there, where it is to be filled in. I filled in about 2 - 3 L before starting.
The loom is exactly 18 months old, so I think, there will be no cracks or so. Cables and connectors were cleaned with brake-cleaner and compressed air. Afterwards I added some WD40, just a little bit.
The warranty: that will only work, when the new loom has some cracks. The more I think about that, the more I think, the shortcut must be in the wiring leading from the main plug to EDIS. And: it's definitely a shortcut, because the engine starts and runs on two cylinders, when the first coilpack is disconnected and stopps immediately, when I re-connect it. We will see.
By the way: it's funny to see, with what a lot of interest the mechanics try to solve this problem. It tends to "0" (that guy should better buy a new car instead of dancing around that old wreck, they think). No, gentlemen, that would definitely not be! I love my car. It is in a good condition, all other systems work. It consumes no oil (200.000 KM!), not so much gasoline, 9,5L/100KM I think, and runs like hell. So what?

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Mike H on Nov 1^st, 2011, 12:03pm

Yeah I know, philistines! ;D

Lot of people scoff at WD40 I know but still works for me getting and keeping water out. So maybe take plug off EDIS and make sure both connectors are dry.

Another possibility is the short blew something in the EDIS that drives the actual coil, if so it's knacked :(

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Matt on Nov 1^st, 2011, 12:04pm

Quote:

because the engine starts and runs on two cylinders, when the first coilpack is disconnected and stopps immediately, when I re-connect it. We will see.

swap the coil packs over, if it does the same then its the loom that runs from the ecu to the edis plug, you can just rewire this by finding the pins that go from the ecu to the edis plug

if the fault now swaps to the other 2 cylinders then you have a duff coil pack

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Mike H on Nov 1^st, 2011, 12:07pm

Good thinking Batman

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Nov 2^nd, 2011, 6:34am

on 11/01/11 at 12:07:30, Mike H wrote:

Good thinking Batman

When changing the coilpacks, the shortcut remains at the first line. Motor-wiring-loom is ok, it's the wiring leading to EDIS. I will try to fix it with shrink-tubing the next days.

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Mike H on Nov 2^nd, 2011, 3:50pm

Are you testing the continuity of, or shorts between, the wires, and if so how? Needs proper exploration with a multimeter set to Ohms mode, not just guessing.

I'm still not clear on a couple of things ~ when you refilled after replacing pump, did you partially refill (and if so, why only partially)

2. did it include antifreeze (if not why not)

3. was cap fastened on the header tank so water squirted out under pressure, or was it left off, or was it a hose left undone and it came out of there, and like that.

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Nov 3^rd, 2011, 6:10am

on 11/02/11 at 15:50:11, Mike H wrote:

Knowing that there was air inside the system, I filled it (with antifreeze) to max. The cap was not on. I waited for the air coming out.

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Mike H on Nov 3^rd, 2011, 4:55pm

Ah! OK. Just curious

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Nov 3^rd, 2011, 5:39pm

on 11/03/11 at 16:55:04, Mike H wrote:

Ah! OK. Just curious

More curious things? Well,here they are. Got my car back this afternoon. Tested coilpack "A", servicing cylinders 2 and 3. Multimeter said: no shortcut. Repared two lines near the EDIS pack and controlled most of these wires. Result: nothing. Runs with coilpack "B" on cylinders 1 and 4 and stopps when attaching the plug for pack "A". Then I found some papers with the results of the test:
- malfunction in primary circuit FCLOW
- this code comes when there is a difference between the current status of the output-circuit of the fan-control - low RPM and to-state
- this is caused by
error probably relais
error probably in the relay module, if built in
- open circuit FCLOW
- shortcut in circuit FCLOW, low voltage
- error lies probably in the PCM

And now???? :-[

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Nov 5^th, 2011, 4:34pm

Hi folks, I am back on the road again! It was the relay operating the fans and which is placed under the ABS. I replaced it by another one and the engine started easily and runs good.

Someone told me that motor-operation will be stopped, when the cooling-system has a malfunction. I dont know if this is true but it looks like that.
Werner

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Mike H on Nov 5^th, 2011, 6:52pm

Well I never! That's why I could not understand the fan mention, I thought what has that got to do with anything. Worth knowing for the future though.

So a load of water went into the relay and that was it.

I noted from another topic someone had written that, when refilling and then warm up engine to equalise the level, do not leave the filler cap off in case steam or water shoots out. Leave it loose instead

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Nov 6^th, 2011, 9:49am

By the way: on your avatar (?) I see some lamps. Do you collect "Petromax"-lamps? I have two, one "Anchor", running on Petroleum and one original Petromax from the army, built 1959, brandnew when bought, running on normal fuel.
Werner

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Mike H on Nov 6^th, 2011, 10:32pm

LOL it's actually one half of a stereo valve amplifier, those are thermionic valves (tubes), although the small one in front has been changed back to being a black one.

For an idea of scale the one at the back is maybe 5 inches high. Either GZ37 or U54 full-wave rectifier. Next highest is 1 of 2 801A directly heated triodes who filaments glow white like light bulbs. Front one was 6EM7, almost the same effect. Photo was an experiment in long exposure

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Mike H on Nov 6^th, 2011, 10:41pm

Ok found a picture of the whole thing, with its power supply unit on the right. The bits underneath are a VCR and the volume control box.

http://livinginthepast-audioweb.co.uk/images/misc/aur-psu-14.jpg

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Nov 7^th, 2011, 5:42am

ooops, my fault!

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Mike H on Nov 7^th, 2011, 12:56pm

lol no worries, very imaginative guess though. ;D

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more- update: hangover
Post by nobbel on Nov 9^th, 2011, 4:18pm

Hi,
after that a little hangover: the motor gains temperature very slowly. It takes the pointer about 5 miles to reach 1/3 of the scale and about 9 miles to get 1/2 of the scale, the normal temperature. The temperature tends to fall a little bit when idling an d when driving with lower speed. The motor tends to consume more fuel and runs by 12 L/100 Km (2 L more then before)
Water-level is ok, slightly warm air comes after about 1 1/2 miles. Thermostate has been changed 8 months ago and has been built in in the right way. And: I have replaced both sensors by new ones.
Both fans dont work at this low temperature.
Any ideas??? :(
Werner

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Tompion on Nov 9^th, 2011, 5:38pm

Some thermostats don't last long so could be that.

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Mike H on Nov 9^th, 2011, 10:06pm

Sounds almost normal for me now Winter is coming on, think I'm going to hafta try a piece of cardboard down the front of the rad this year ;D

Even so heater still works though.

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Nov 10^th, 2011, 11:34am

Never, it's a car of the 20ths century! Heating was pretty good last winter. That thing with the temperature gauge started in summer. I will try it with a new thermostate. If that doesn't work: 200g TNT - and good.

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Nov 19^th, 2011, 3:43pm

>:( And now: I changed the thermostate today and - nothing. Same procedure as every day. The gauge shows very slowly rising temperature. It rises up to the normal position as in the time before - from time to time. Sometime it remains there for some minutes or not . That means: it goes down to nearly the blue zone. There is no relation between the indication and the speed. It seems to be an electrical problem because: there is enough coolant in it. System is ok and doesnt loose pressure. Both sensores are brand new. There is no unintended operation of the fans. And I hat no problems with that until beginning of this summer.
What the hell is that??? Should I change the instrument block?
Has anyone an idea?
Werner

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Mike H on Nov 21^st, 2011, 9:24pm

Again, sounds exactly the same as mine! Drove down from Doncaster Sunday, only time it got to the centre of the gauge was during a very slow crawl in roadworks on the A1. Otherwise down near the bottom. Lots of warm air out of the heater though in fact had to turn it down to half, but outside very cold foggy day. It can vary with speed though, or more correctly with engine power, I have noticed it can go up a bit if you boot the gas pedal. Bear in mind coolant is running through the heater all the time and it does act like a radiator. Was considering changing the thermostat but you may have convinced me it may not make much difference. ;D

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Nov 29^th, 2011, 7:06am

I have changed the instruments - nothing. Seems to be a problem with the wiring-loom. I'll find it out.
And: heating is bad! Seems to be the radiator is clogged. I intended to clean it with water-pressure. Found the radiator-in-tube. But where ist the radiator-out-tube?

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Simmo on Nov 29^th, 2011, 7:28am

If you are referring to the Heater matix the hose layouts are all shown Here (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/matrix.htm). Scroll to the bottom of the page. :)

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Nov 30^th, 2011, 8:18am

... fine, thank you.

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Dec 5^th, 2011, 10:12am

I'll check the wiring next time. Weather is too bad. But some mysterious Things that let me believe that the radiator is not clogged: On tour for about 80 miles and that thing gave me an "Africa-feeling" with no reaction to heating on "hi" or "lo". On the way back a temperature just 5 degrees above freezing, all the way with a foggy shine on the right half of the window. Afterwards I made an A/C-reset. The temperature can now be regulated a little bit, but alwas with a foggy shine on the right half of the window.
Should I replace the a/c-computer?
Werner

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by nobbel on Dec 21^st, 2011, 9:35am

And now: disconnected the radiator-tubing (both) and gave it a lot of water in reverse direction - and found some black dirt in the sieve of the hopper I used to keep the water away from the main wiring loom. Afterwards the water ran fine through the radiator so that I think the radiator isn't clogged anymore. Afterwards the self-test of the a/c-system gave me a 57 and a 58, after the reset 50, fine. Now the heater does what I want, hot or cold. But I can see that there is coming out a little bit less air on the right side, causing the right half of the window drying a little bit later than the left side. And I gave the flaps of the middle air outlets a new sealing, using parts of the fluffy side of velcro-fasteners.

Title: Re: 2,3 doesn't start any more
Post by Tompion on Dec 29^th, 2011, 7:57pm

Mine’s occasionally misted up on one side of late. I only checked the drains a couple of months ago so I didn’t think it would be that especially as I rarely find any significant dirt on the valves. However it didn’t want to clear the other day so I checked the drains & sure enough water ran out from the drain on the misting side & the valve was clogged – no misting now.

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/acdrain.htm