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        General >> Problems >> Engine pinking
        
(Message started by: magnetono59 on Feb 6th, 2012, 7:28pm)
Title: Engine pinking
Post by magnetono59 on Feb 6th, 2012, 7:28pm
My car is a Scorpio 2L 16V estate 1996. My problem is that the engine will start OK and will rev OK in neutral but will pink under load particularly on hills.
I have cleaned the MAF but it made no difference. I have the usual problem with the loom being damaged due to engine heat but it has been like that for many years. I am reluctant to replace it not knowing if it is the problem. Does anybody know if the damaged wires can be replaced with heat resistant wire.
I have read articles on the site about OBD and I would like to know if the lead and software would be a good investment, or does any member have a lead for sale.
Any help with my problem would be appreciated.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by a900one on Feb 6th, 2012, 8:09pm
Have you tried V Power?.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Tompion on Feb 6th, 2012, 10:08pm
A member of the site had problems with pinking on his 2.3 which turned out to be a faulty camshaft sensor. Check the wiring to yours isn’t shorting or trapped under the coilpack cover.
My 2.3 will run fine without the cam sensor connected I assume the same applies to the 2.0 so you could try disconnecting it to see if it makes a difference.

Yes you can replace the wires, but I changed the loom on mine as the plugs were crumbling & it’s difficult to get the plugs.
All the wires of the Fuel Cut-off Loom were in poor condition on mine not just those at the top of the engine.

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/dohcloom.htm
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by magnetono59 on Feb 6th, 2012, 10:28pm
Two questions. What is V Power and is the crankshaft sensor the one at the rear right hand side of the engine? One other point I forgot to mention. When I was checking the plugs that there was oil in the cavity of the plug nearest the front.
I have made a contribution.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Tompion on Feb 6th, 2012, 11:20pm
I assume V power is Shell petrol. Yes that's the location of the cam sensor. The oil is probably the cylinder head cover gasket leaking.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Matt on Feb 7th, 2012, 10:16am
Hiya

Where are you located, a few members have obd equipment dotted around the country, im sure a cup of tea and a bacon butty will tempt one of them to come over to you

Yes vpower is shells super duper fuel, but at 1.43 a liter its costly
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by magnetono59 on Feb 7th, 2012, 11:12am
I will try removing the sensor today. I live in south west Ireland so unfortunately I cannot avail of members help I doubt if a bacon butty would entice members to travel to Limerick. I don't think we have that brand of shell.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Highlander on Feb 7th, 2012, 11:30am
lol I was in Shannon but 4 weeks ago  ;)
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Tompion on Feb 7th, 2012, 1:43pm

on 02/07/12 at 11:12:28, magnetono59 wrote:
I will try removing the sensor today. I live in south west Ireland so unfortunately I cannot avail of members help I doubt if a bacon butty would entice members to travel to Limerick. I don't think we have that brand of shell.


The sensor is easy enough to remove but I was just suggesting you unplug it & see if it still pinks.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Jonnycab on Feb 7th, 2012, 5:13pm

on 02/06/12 at 22:08:54, Tompion wrote:
A member of the site had problems with pinking on his 2.3 which turned out to be a faulty camshaft sensor. Check the wiring to yours isn’t shorting or trapped under the coilpack cover.


That was me a few years ago. The car used to suffer from terrible intermittent pinking under load & it was indeed down to a faulty camshaft sensor  :)
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by magnetono59 on Feb 7th, 2012, 8:22pm
I tried removing the camshaft sensor but it didn't make any difference, however if the sensor is faulty it wouldnt be a proper test. Does anybody know if the sensor should be normally open  or short circuit. I will probably have to replace the loom in any case to make a proper diagnosis.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Tompion on Feb 8th, 2012, 10:38am
I would imagine the 2L would be the same as the 2.3L however I’m unable to confirm the results would be the same.

There is no noticeable difference in performance on mine whether or not the cam sensor is connected, therefore on mine if it started pinking with it connected & continued to pink with it disconnected that would suggest the fault was elsewhere.
If it stopped pinking with the cam sensor disconnected then the fault may be with the cam sensor (I say may because the engine control could be using a different strategy).

The fault finder page suggests the fuel pressure regulator/fuel filter/fuel pump.
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/faultfinds.htm

Another possibility is a non-functioning EGR (Exhaust Gas Recirculation) see here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/egr.htm

However some people have the EGR disabled & I’ve not seen any reports of pinking but I would imagine quality of fuel & driving style could have an effect.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by magnetono59 on Feb 9th, 2012, 11:43am
I have enquired about the loom here and it will cost 216 Euro. Can anybody suggest a supplier in the UK where it costs £90.00. Will the new loom suffer from the same problem of insulation damage?
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Mike H on Feb 12th, 2012, 1:12pm
Yes, eventually. ;D

I was going to say CPS wires are amongst that set which can get roasted by the cylinder head heat, i.e. the so-called 'cut off loom', actually coilpack wiring ~ so could be brittle / crumbling insulation on those wires.

Rather than buy loom can you not repair by soldering in new wires?

PS: I leave the plastic cover off in Summer so cyl head heat has a better chance to escape. Also I have heat resistant sleeving on my new wires in case plastic insulation fails, still some insulation on top.

As Tompion says though need to establish if CPS is actually causing the problem.

IIRC the ignition module uses the CPS signal, if it can't get it it defaults to 10 degrees BTDC.

HTH
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by magnetono59 on Feb 13th, 2012, 9:05pm
First let me say thanks for all the suggestions. I would have no problem in repairing the loom if I can get the proper wire. In fact I could build a new loom if I could get the wire and plugs. I have sent a request to a possible supplier but as yet no reply. There may be a problem with the pins of the plugs. The wiring under the cover is in a very poor condition I thought that as this is the low tension side of the coil pack and as long as the wires are not touching it should not cause a problem. This damage is visable but there may be damage somewhere else in the loom. I see that there are looms available on ebay at £187.00 this is probably about the value of the car. Can anybody tell me where the four wires from the coil packs go to.
Is it possible to contact the member who bought a loom for £90.00.
Apologies for all the questions
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Tompion on Feb 13th, 2012, 10:26pm
The main site doesn't get updated so the quoted cost is what it was a long time back when the article was written.

In Feb 2006 mine was £98 from http://www.fordpartsuk.com/ (the same firm you’ve found on ebay).

With regard deterioration the wires still appear to be in good condition but the convoluted sleeving to the coil packs has become brittle (which doesn’t really matter).


The coilpack wires go back to the long plastic cover over the injectors (you can unclip the cover) & from there back to the big connector on the wing.

On the ebay picture they go into the right hand end of the long box at the top of the picture & from there down the large conduit to the big plug on the left of the picture.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Simmo on Feb 14th, 2012, 7:00am
The plugs will be your main problem. This has been researched before and they appear to be specific to Ford and although there are many 'look alikes' they are not a match.  The solution is to retain the plugs and a short section of wireto connect to if possible. A good firm is Vehicle Wiring Products..0115 9305454.  Site is Here (http://www.vehicle-wiring-products.eu/VWP-onlinestore/home/homepage.php)
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by magnetono59 on Feb 14th, 2012, 7:58pm
Vehicle wiring products is the company that I emailed but they have not replied as yet. Is the wire required a special type to withstand the heat off the engine? Is there a wiring diagram of the loom?
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Simmo on Feb 15th, 2012, 8:25am
My advice would be to ring them. They were very helpful and knowledgeable when I was researching the availability of plugs. Their catalogue lists range of heat resistant sleeving which can be used to protect the cables.  :)

Have a look at This page (http://www.drich2422.ukfsn.org/SCORPIO_WIRING%20DIAGRAMS/) courtesy of Snoopy  :)
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Mike H on Feb 15th, 2012, 11:36am

on 02/14/12 at 19:58:41, magnetono59 wrote:
Vehicle wiring products is the company that I emailed but they have not replied as yet.

I was going to suggest them too.


Quote:
Is the wire required a special type to withstand the heat off the engine? Is there a wiring diagram of the loom?

No think it's just 'ordinary' ~ I know of a transformer maker who uses stuff with plastic insulation able to stand 400 degrees, but is not something you can readily get hold of I don't think. As I said taking the plastic cyl head top cover off helps enormously so wire insulation has a much easier life then I think.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Mike H on Feb 15th, 2012, 11:47am

on 02/13/12 at 21:05:04, magnetono59 wrote:
In fact I could build a new loom if I could get the wire and plugs.

What I did was use the same plugs, just cut the wires short, strip, clean up and dip in liquid flux, after soldering the new wire on, sleeve the joint with heatshrink sleeving. Then finally heat resistant sleeving over the top, think it's fibreglass based.



Quote:
Can anybody tell me where the four wires from the coil packs go to.

EDIS module, which is the ignition module, and it is behind the right hand headlamp in front of windscreen washer bottle (think that's right). Well it is on the British righthand drive cars ;D

Good mention about spark plugs, could well be that, if the electrodes are getting red hot you will get pre-ignition.

So not sure if it is the camshaft sensor because if it was, like I said the EDIS should default to 10 degrees BTDC (as far as I know, someone will correct me if I'm wrong ;D ), which should not cause the pinking. However it not working may raise another fault symptom (?)
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Mike H on Feb 15th, 2012, 11:51am

on 02/14/12 at 19:58:41, magnetono59 wrote:
Is there a wiring diagram of the loom?

Here: https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=eb36f845ea9b8fb6&id=EB36F845EA9B8FB6%21146

You want 'ENGINE CONTROL 2.3L 16V ...' I think.  :)

Hope all that helps!
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Tompion on Feb 15th, 2012, 12:07pm
His is 2L, there are differences between auto & manual, If I rememember correctly not all use an edis module(Electronic Distributorless Ignition System).
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Tompion on Feb 15th, 2012, 12:53pm
If you want to fry your brain you can read all the megasquirt site:
http://www.megamanual.com/index.html

Put a couple of quotes from there together with my experience of no noticeable difference in performance without the cam sensor & it would seem likely that the engine goes from sequential injection to batch firing of the injectors and the timing remains unaffected.

“Ford's Electronic Distributorless Ignition System (EDIS) is an ignition system that does NOT require a cam position signal.”

“The benefits of sequential injection are that:
•      you may get slightly better mileage and lower emissions at low engine speeds,
•      you can tune each cylinder's fuel amount independently (if you know how).
The effect on maximum horsepower is general negligible.”
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Mike H on Feb 15th, 2012, 1:28pm
Not cam sensor then! ;D
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by magnetono59 on Mar 10th, 2012, 8:07pm
To-day I had a go at the loom. I removed the various tapes and split sleeving back to a point where the wire insulation was intact. Taking one wire at a time I cut it about 2cm from the plug and pulled it back through the rubber grommets. I placed a length of braided sleeving over the wire as suggested  and fed it back to the plug I slipped on a heat shrink sleeve as suggested re soldered the wire to the wire in the plug slipped on the heat shrink sleeve and heated it to shrink. I repeated the process for all the wires that were bare the result was that there was no difference to the performance.
Being resonably sure that the loom was OK I had a look at the ignition. lifting one lead at a time I found that the second plug appeared to make very little difference to the engine. I removed the plug and it was sooty so I replaced it and the same happened. It looks like I might have a faulty coil pack. ( I feel certain that I checked the ignition at the start of my problems but I may have missed something at the time)
I had an basic OBD check done on the car yesterday. The mechanic informed me that the only fault registerd was the air senson (not the MAF) but  removing the sensor seems to make no difference.
My next step is to try and find a friendly scorpio owner who will let me borrow a coil pack and sensors to carry out further localisation.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Simmo on Mar 10th, 2012, 9:07pm

on 03/10/12 at 20:07:45, magnetono59 wrote:
My next step is to try and find a friendly scorpio owner who will let me borrow a coil pack and sensors to carry out further localisation.

In which case you need to post whereabouts you are in the Country so that if there is any one nearby they can let you know if they can help. ;)
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by magnetono59 on Mar 16th, 2012, 8:07pm
Problem solved. One of the coil packs deteriorated to the point where the car was running on the equivalent of three cylinders. This made diagnosis easier. I was able to borrow a pack to finally prove the fault. Does anybody know how the coil pack functions. There are two wires to the primary and the secondary is connected to two spark plugs. Do the two plugs fire together. Many thanks again for all the help and advice.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by leewar on Mar 16th, 2012, 9:36pm
Do you need any coil packs as a member is selling two for a very reasonable price in Parts for Sale.  Lee
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by magnetono59 on Mar 17th, 2012, 11:11am
I am very interested in buying the coil packs. Can you give me details to contact Lee.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by lesterlad aka Rodders on Mar 17th, 2012, 11:18am

on 03/17/12 at 11:11:22, magnetono59 wrote:
I am very interested in buying the coil packs. Can you give me details to contact Lee.


You can Private Message him.

To see his post click on the link and then click on his user name > http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=admin3;action=display;num=1331761239
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by leewar on Mar 17th, 2012, 1:56pm
Magnetono59, Singleton_scott has the packs and he lives in Norwich. Cheers Lee
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by magnetono59 on Mar 17th, 2012, 6:01pm
Where do the wires go to. There is one branch of the fuel shut off loom that puzzles me. It it branch that travels down the left side of the engine. (Seen from the front). There are six wires involved. White and brown wires go to the engine coolant temperature sensor. Brown red and white red go to the crankshaft position sensor. (impossible to get at) A black green goes to a single terminal and there is a second black green which I would like to now where it ends up.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by gozz on Mar 17th, 2012, 7:57pm
There are five units on the offside of the engine,throttle position sensor,crank sensor,engine coolant sensor(for ECU),temperature gauge sensor and oil pressure light switch.The 2.3 has a plastic manifold so requires a wired return for the temp gauge.Could yours have a  spare wire for fitment to a 2.3 ?
                                                  GOZZ.
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Simmo on Mar 18th, 2012, 7:00am
The wiring diagrams are, courtesy of Snoopy, Here (https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=eb36f845ea9b8fb6&id=EB36F845EA9B8FB6%21146). If you select the model you will find the answer I'm sure. :)
Title: Re: Engine pinking
Post by Mike H on Mar 18th, 2012, 12:32pm

on 03/16/12 at 20:07:12, magnetono59 wrote:
There are two wires to the primary and the secondary is connected to two spark plugs. Do the two plugs fire together.

Yes I believe they do, it's a "wasted spark" system (the plug that doesn't actually need to spark gets one anyway ;D )

I think the coil primaries are alternately switched on each half engine revolution (?)


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