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        General >> Problems >> Non starting 24v
        
(Message started by: Ghia15 on Aug 8^th, 2012, 6:06pm)

Title: Non starting 24v
Post by Ghia15 on Aug 8^th, 2012, 6:06pm

Hi,

I have a 1995 scorpio cosworth which i am stripping the engine out of for one of my project cars.

I have tried to start her up to get the engine ang gearbox warm to drain them and she wont fire.

There is petrol and she turns over well.

I think the car thinks it is being stolen so has imobilised the car. while turning over there was a constant buzz from a black box which i think is part of the alarm.

there was one point where the car coughed but wouldn't fire.

would the engine turn over if imobilised?

How do i bypass the alarm to get the car going again.

I have disconnected loads of wires but all for the front and rear lights, did take off some earths but put them back on when it initially didn't fire.

Can anyone help me as i need to pull the engine this week and get the shell gone.

Any sugestions are welcome as I am a bit of a novice with electrics and with modern cars. ( yes I consider 17 years old as modern, lol)
Cheers, Jonathon

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Matt on Aug 8^th, 2012, 9:22pm

sounds like the Pats has shut it down, they do crank but dont fire are you ysing the key or have you took the switch off?

if you plan to run the engine off the standard ecu you will need to get this working as its all intergrated. people have been successful bypassing pats onlt for tge ecu to drop into loss a few days later

other bits to look at are connections to coil pack and cam and crank sensor

buzzing could be the gearbox selector not in park or neutral, but normally wont even crank if its in gear

fuel cut off switch in boot not activated

double check all disconnected wires, scorpio used multiplec wiring meaning some cables do more then one job

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Ghia15 on Aug 9^th, 2012, 12:18am

Have not removed the ignition barrel yet, all that is still in place and has not moved since the car was last running.

What is the Pats and can it be reset?

I have only taken some connections off the engine to label the wires and then refitted them so I dont think that is a problem.

I do want to run the std ECU so definatly need to get this sorted before i pull the engine.

Might be the fuel cut off switch, is that the component in the boot just under the locking mechanism?, will look at that, does it work if it is still plugged in but not mounted to the boot?

Gearbox was plugged in and in either neutral or park, put it into drive and it didn't turn over so thats ok.

I dont think I have unplugged any more wires since the engine was working except for the rear heated screen, rear speakers and the door connectors.

Cheers for the response, will post back with an update tomorrow.

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Nunnspoet on Aug 9^th, 2012, 8:09am

Not at all sure of my ground here, a long shot, but may be worth a try ::)

If she has been left fot a while could it be that the ignition key has gone out of sinque?

I can't remember the exact sequence for cinquing the key or quite where it is described on the site but that is the way I would go first.

I hope this helps

Mike :)

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Matt on Aug 9^th, 2012, 9:17am

yea the fuel cut off is the bit under the lock, only needs a bump and it will pop up, push it back down to reset

Pats is the immoblizing system, it reads the chip in the key via a pick up ring around the ignition barrel if all ok it will fire otherwise it just cranks over as part of the ecu is locked out untill it can read the code

can you hear the fuel pump run when you go to ignition pos 2 when the dash lights up?

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Mike H on Aug 9^th, 2012, 11:14am

Did you refit the engine connectors properly? There's lots in the dashboard, may have disturbed something else?

If 1995 the PATS box is separate next to the ECU module, but could be wrong

Buzzing could be door open alarm, has to be in park to stop it I think.

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Ghia15 on Aug 9^th, 2012, 11:53am

wil take a pic of the box that was buzing.

If the pats box is by the ecu then i havent removed it or even touched it yet.

All the connectors are fitted correctly on the engine.

Will give your sujestions a try.

I tried to sync the key by turning it to p1 and back, then got a beep. not sure if it correct though.

Thanks for all your sujestions and i will post up progress as and when it happens

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Ghia15 on Aug 9^th, 2012, 12:29pm

Not the fuel cutoff switch, pump is priming and there is a stong smell of fuel when the engine is cranking which sujests it is getting fuel but is not sparking which sujests the alarm/imobiliser system.

Anyway this can be reset?

http://s240.photobucket.com/albums/ff297/Ghia15_photos/24V%20cosworth/

This is a link to the pictures of the components i am unsure about.

The black box i am holding is what made the continuous singlesound buz

The orange box, is this the pats box?

What is the box above the ECU for?

there is an earth wire on the metal holder for the ecu that is disconected, any idea where this should go?

How many earth wires are on the 3 bolts on the passenger side pillar near the ECU?

Cheers

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Ghia15 on Aug 9^th, 2012, 1:27pm

An update.

Using the Dash LED There are no fault codes comming up regarding the pats system.

Turn the key in the ignition and after 3 seconds the LED goes out. This signals that the pats is working as it should and recieving the correct code from the keys.

the info was from
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm

Still concerned that the car wont start but was bricking it about it being the imobiliser.

How can I transfer the imobiliser ring to my new car?

Cheers

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Ghia15 on Aug 9^th, 2012, 4:29pm

Just checked the fuses in the auxillary box on the passenger side of the car, all fine.

The box making the noise was part of the gearbox in gear warning buzzer.

Car still wont start but seems like it should, think it is a spark problem though so something to do with the EDIS, coil pack or the link to the ECU i think.

Still not 100% though, does this seem logical?

Cheers

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Matt on Aug 9^th, 2012, 4:47pm

the box above the ecu is the CCM it controls stuff like the interiour lights locks etc and the alarm it could be faulty buy then ive had car running with it dusconnected so doubt it

does sound like an ignition problem maybe coil pack or the edis 6 modual whick is bolted to tge O/S inner wing

where are you located? May be members local who can help

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Ghia15 on Aug 9^th, 2012, 5:59pm

Ah, thats what that is. All the interior lights are still working.

I think it is not sparking, I read somewhere that if any of the components on the engine are disconnected while the battery is on then it can cause a build up of static in the coil pack that takes 24 hours to clear, I have been removing the maf sensor to check for loose wires. Could it just be this build up of static that is the problem?

I am a complete novice with stuff like this, the youngest car i have worked on, apart from oil and filter, is a 1982 Ford. lol

I am located just off the coventry ring road.

Cheers

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Mike H on Aug 9^th, 2012, 6:08pm

Could be ignition, I thought the immobiliser stopped the injectors working (as well?) so should not be smelling of fuel. (?)

There is something that is fussy about static and needs discharging if messed with, is it the EDIS to ECU connection(s)?

Could be it

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Matt on Aug 9^th, 2012, 6:26pm

It could be and if the earth is off the ecu it may of spiked it

coventry put you in my neck of the woods as im in brum not far from the airport

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Ghia15 on Aug 9^th, 2012, 6:46pm

that doesnt sound good, what would that mean if the ecu has been spiked.

Will do a spark check either later today or tomorrow to see if the engine is getting a spark.

There was a very brief period where the engine was being cranked with the earth off the A pillar, but was only about 5 seconds.

might get an OBD2 fault code reader to narrow the problem down, might be worth getting as planning to use the engine and original loom again so could be useful in the future.

Cheers

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Matt on Aug 9^th, 2012, 8:41pm

Its handy im close as ive got fords own fds2000 diagnistic system

A spike can happen when batterys or powered up componants are removed and there isnt a good earth

although the case earth may have been off there are at least 3 ground connections from memory in the large plug

im at ford fair this weekend but may be able to pop round and have a look with you next week some time, i do work evening shifts though

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Ghia15 on Aug 9^th, 2012, 9:13pm

That would be awesome, Im busy this weekend anyway but am free all next week bar a few appointments.
will PM you my details to arrange a time that is good for us both.

Im Jonathon By the way.

Cheers

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Matt on Aug 19^th, 2012, 6:02pm

Got the Scorpio up and running today, good old FDS found faults the other code readers didnt,

did a full pass of the ignition system and it flew through, plugged it back together and she fired up

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Simmo on Aug 19^th, 2012, 7:56pm

Well done Matt ! ;D

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Ghia15 on Aug 20^th, 2012, 9:46am

Yes, Big thanks to Matt.

Just shows that having the right kit and experience with a car makes all the difference.

So happy now i can continue with my plans.

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by georgeodyphotos on Nov 28^th, 2013, 3:45pm

Could do with someone like Matt to sort out my starting problems.

Title: Re: Non starting 24v
Post by Matt on Nov 28^th, 2013, 11:23pm

If you were closer id pop over with the kit, but i wont have the time this side of christmas