Ford Scorpio Forum - Print Page


    
      
        Ford Scorpio Forum
        (https://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl)
      

        General >> Problems >> abs dash light on all the time  HELP PLEASE
        
(Message started by: DAVID_P_MARSH on Aug 12^th, 2012, 3:02pm)

Title: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by DAVID_P_MARSH on Aug 12^th, 2012, 3:02pm

help needed in portsmouth or gosport, i have hade to do a SORN for my scorpio and its in gosport AT MY SONS HOME/ i had the sensore read by PHILIPS AUTO IN POMPY ALL READING A OKAY AT THE MODULE PLUG TRIED A DIFERENT PUMP/MODULE BUT ITS THE SAME I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS 95GB-2M110-AC DOSE NOT KEEP THE CODES IN ITS MEMORY AND IT SHOULD GO OF WITH OUT A CODE READER PLEASE HELP A PENSIONER???????????????MY HOME NO\; 02392328189 had another go at this today rear wheels off calipers off sencers out found that the sensors had not been chaned over at all cleaned the n/s one its okay put all back still the light on. HAS ANYONE FOUND A WAY TO RUN A SELF TEST ON THE PUMP AND MODUAL OFF THE CAR AT ALL FOR THE 95 M PLATE SCORPIO

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by a900one on Aug 12^th, 2012, 5:03pm

If you turn on the ignition and not move the car will the light come on.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Simmo on Aug 12^th, 2012, 6:03pm

on 08/12/12 at 17:03:07, a900one wrote:

If you turn on the ignition and not move the car will the light come on.

I have spoken to David and the answer is yes it does.

Further the initial diagnosis was a faulty r/n/s/ sensor. The correct replacement was sourced and fitted but the light stayed on. Fitting the sensor to the r/o/s/ produced a fault on that side!. I have suggested that the sensor may have picked up debris which is stuck to it and thus causing a fault.
Any other ideas?. ???

The car is an M reg 2.0ltr manual Ultima.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by leewar on Aug 13^th, 2012, 12:46am

Connection under the back seat???

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Simmo on Aug 13^th, 2012, 6:59am

on 08/13/12 at 00:46:27, leewar wrote:

Connection under the back seat???

I did discuss this and as far as he can tell it is ok. :) Testing at the module plug suggests that all the readings are ok. My money is on debris etc either on the rings or the sensor. The fault developed during a long run in good weather BUT there had been intermittent indications beforehand. ;)

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by gozz on Aug 13^th, 2012, 9:47am

Simmo.
Did you ask David whether or not the car had been driven over 15mph after the swaps/fits to rebalance the system,not forgetting the possibility of loose wheel bearing syndrome.
GOZZ.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Simmo on Aug 13^th, 2012, 10:40am

Hi Gozz, Yes I did. As you know on these models you have to drive it to clear the light. His son apparently drove it afterwards and that made no difference. When I had 'your' unit fitted to mine the light was on until I drove away from the garage at which point,as you say, it cleared. ;) Hope to be up your way towards the end of the month but need to speak to Mark first. :)

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Tompion on Aug 15^th, 2012, 10:59am

All Scorpio ABS modules I’ve looked at (MK1V & MK20) retain the codes, I don’t know if any had the same part no. as you give but I would have thought the same applied to yours. If it were the case that codes aren’t retained then the light should go out for the static test if all electrical components are sound, the resistance of the sensors isn’t that critical for the static test as long as it’s not very high in fact it will pass the static test with a wheel sensor unplugged and the pins shorted out at the connector & only come on during the rolling test (unless there are codes stored). If you’re sure all sensors are electrically sound & you only have sensor codes then the controller must retain the codes.

There are at least 3 codes for sensor faults do you know what the code was?

If the problem changes sides when you swap over the replacement sensor it rather suggests the sensor is faulty. Is the face of the sensor flat? If it’s concave it could have come into contact with the sensor ring during a wheel bearing failure (either on your car or the bearing on the donor car – assuming you’re not using a brand new sensor), this can cause a code due to too big an air gap.

See here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Advice;action=display;num=1155408212;start=0#0

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Mike H on Aug 15^th, 2012, 3:06pm

What is not clear yet (to me)

Turn key on, ABS lights up as it should. Wait a couple of seconds, it goes out. Yes?

If it goes out, component tests are OK.

If it lights up again when moving, rust choked toothed wheel whatever you call it for a sensor, kind of thing, needs cleaning. (or collapsing wheel bearing)

However on mine, if after the latter, turn it off, then next time turned on, is back to the initial start-up test, light goes out as normal, = component test OK.

Something else ~ if battery charge is too low, start-up ABS test can't test the ABS module pump, because there isn't enough juice in the battery, that can make the light come on, or maybe flash while starting the engine. I've seen that often and it always means "put batt on charger ASAP"

HTH

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Mike H on Aug 15^th, 2012, 3:16pm

In other words, what I'm asking is,

1. is battery fully charged

2. when turn key to position 2, do not start engine but watch dashboard lights, all should go out except oil, batt & handbrake.

NB: this is 'M' reg, like mine 'N' (1995) so we do not have OBD2. Pretty sure that's right? I know once the MOT test place tried to do a read on it and the feedback I got was "couldn't do it, car's OBD is an old type"

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by gozz on Aug 16^th, 2012, 12:17am

16v and 24v engines have OBD 2,12v and diesels have EEC 4,not sure about 8v.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Mike H on Aug 16^th, 2012, 10:58am

I dunno, OBD2 was not "invented" until 1996, unless wikipedia is lying. (again?)

So the preceding has become known as "OBD1", but wasn't called that originally.

They say.

Going back to the beginning, seems swapping the module made no difference so yes suggests to me too a sensor, connection, dirty toothed ring(s) etc. Also check sensor tip for metal particles magnetically stuck on.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Nunnspoet on Aug 17^th, 2012, 8:49am

???. I'm a bit confused here Mike H.

I own a N reg. 24 valve estate and have had OBD 2 scans quite a few times. OBD 2 did a grand job with no problems. 8)

I know that OBD 2 won't work on a 2.9, 12 valve Scorpio. I own one, however (please forgive me my bad memory :-[ ) somebody on here made up a reader which many of us purchaced for around 50squiddies and it does an excellent job. The details and codes are to be found on the site.

Mike :)

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Nunnspoet on Aug 17^th, 2012, 9:07am

Found it! ::)

For the 12 valve reader look in OBD advice then look up DIY diagnostic unit EEC IV + ABS?
Called the Star Reader Here (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/star.htm)

Mike

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Mike H on Aug 17^th, 2012, 1:16pm

That is useful, not sure I've seen that before.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Tompion on Aug 20^th, 2012, 4:54pm

According to the technical service training booklet (new product introduction - 00/229) for the Scorpio ’95 all petrol engines except the 12v are equipped with the EEC V module. This was to comply with the ’96 EEC regs.

I believe it may not be strictly OBD 11 compliant but that may be simply because it doesn’t have a malfunction indicator lamp (MIL) to show if there is a problem.

The LHD versions of the 12v were not available in all countries because they didn’t meet the new standards.

Mind you the ABS codes are stored in the ABS module not in the EEC module.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by DAVID_P_MARSH on Aug 21^st, 2012, 6:31pm

on 08/15/12 at 15:16:30, Mike H wrote:

In other words, what I'm asking is,

1. is battery fully charged YES

2. when turn key to position 2, do not start engine but watch dashboard lights, all should go out except oil, batt & handbrake.

NB: this is 'M' reg, like mine 'N' (1995) so we do not have OBD2. Pretty sure that's right? I know once the MOT test place tried to do a read on it and the feedback I got was "couldn't do it, car's OBD is an old type"

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Technology2005 on Aug 22^nd, 2012, 11:54am

on 08/16/12 at 10:58:56, Mike H wrote:

I dunno, OBD2 was not "invented" until 1996, unless wikipedia is lying. (again?)

I have a 1995 M 2.0l 16v and a 1996 N 2.0l 16v and both are OBD2 Mike...so Wikipedia strikes again I'd say ;D

David

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Tompion on Aug 22^nd, 2012, 2:01pm

Wiki says things like “1996: The OBD-II specification is made mandatory for all cars sold in the United States.”
It doesn’t say it was invented then, clearly car manufacturers would start implementing the new standard in advance of that date to try & avoid having cars on the forecourt with obsolete standards when the new ruling was implemented.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by DAVID_P_MARSH on Aug 22^nd, 2012, 2:21pm

on 08/12/12 at 17:03:07, a900one wrote:

If you turn on the ignition and not move the car will the light come on.

YES IT DOSE

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by DAVID_P_MARSH on Aug 22^nd, 2012, 2:34pm

on 08/15/12 at 10:59:04, Tompion wrote:

All Scorpio ABS modules I’ve looked at (MK1V & MK20) retain the codes, I don’t know if any had the same part no. as you give but I would have thought the same applied to yours. If it were the case that codes aren’t retained then the light should go out for the static test if all electrical components are sound, the resistance of the sensors isn’t that critical for the static test as long as it’s not very high in fact it will pass the static test with a wheel sensor unplugged and the pins shorted out at the connector & only come on during the rolling test (unless there are codes stored). If you’re sure all sensors are electrically sound & you only have sensor codes then the controller must retain the codes.

There are at least 3 codes for sensor faults do you know what the code was? THE READ CODES AT 2 PLACES WAS C1165

If the problem changes sides when you swap over the replacement sensor it rather suggests the sensor is faulty. Is the face of the sensor flat? If it’s concave it could have come into contact with the sensor ring during a wheel bearing failure (either on your car or the bearing on the donor car – assuming you’re not using a brand new sensor), this can cause a code due to too big an air gap. WE FOUND THAT THE N/S/R HADE NOT BEEN OUT AS I WAS TOLD WE CLEANED AND CLEANED OUT THE RINGGEAR ON THAT SIDE THE BEST WE COULD AS WE DO NOT HAVE THE TOOLS TO REMOVE THE HUBS.

See here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Advice;action=display;num=1155408212;start=0#0

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Tompion on Aug 22^nd, 2012, 5:18pm

C1165 (speed wheel sensor RR input circuit failure) is the code you get if it fails the static test (I've just disconnecting my RR sensor & it gave that code - ignition on but not driven).
Have you tested/compared the resistance to all the sensors from the ABS plug and at the RR sensor itself?

It can happen that codes are layered, that is you need to fix one fault before you see the other codes – however if yours really doesn’t store codes that probably wouldn’t happen.

If as it would appear it is a static test failure then cleaning the sensor ring will not cure it since the sensor ring only comes into play with the rolling test.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Mike H on Aug 23^rd, 2012, 11:52am

Ok starting to get a handle on what's going on looks like.

Is it possible to short out a sensor or its connecting lead to produce a clear static test? Just to prove it

on 08/22/12 at 14:01:52, Tompion wrote:

clearly car manufacturers would start implementing the new standard in advance of that date to try & avoid having cars on the forecourt with obsolete standards when the new ruling was implemented.

That would make sense, and only dawned on me latterly ;D

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Mike H on Aug 23^rd, 2012, 12:02pm

Hang on just read Simmo's post again from prev. page, so we know it's this 'new' (?) sensor to replace n/s/r, but no good, put it on another wheel, fault moves with it! Sensor duff? Can it be Ohms tested with a multimeter?

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by DAVID_P_MARSH on Aug 23^rd, 2012, 1:44pm

on 08/23/12 at 11:52:04, Mike H wrote:

Ok starting to get a handle on what's going on looks like.

Is it possible to short out a sensor or its connecting lead to produce a clear static test? Just to prove it

That would make sense, and only dawned on me latterly ;D

we will see if this can be done next time im at gosport

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by DAVID_P_MARSH on Aug 23^rd, 2012, 1:45pm

on 08/23/12 at 12:02:12, Mike H wrote:

WE WILL GIVE THIS A GO FOR IT THE NEXT TIME I AM IN GOSPORT

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by DAVID_P_MARSH on Aug 23^rd, 2012, 1:48pm

on 08/22/12 at 17:18:38, Tompion wrote:

WHAT SCANER DO YOU HAVE AND DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA'S FOR ME AS WE ARE AT A STAND STILL??????????

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Mike H on Aug 24^th, 2012, 9:45am

Is it possible (at this stage) to replace the duff sensor connection with a wire link and produce a clear static test? I'm not asking David but the other experts ;D

If this checks out, looks like you're still back at square one, duff sensor.

NB, a clear static test is turn ignition on (don't start engine), watch the ABS light, should go out in a couple of secs

(PS: make sure battery has enough charge to work ABS pump self test though, think that's right)

HTH

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Tompion on Aug 28^th, 2012, 8:13pm

on 08/23/12 at 13:48:24, DAVID_P_MARSH wrote:

WHAT SCANER DO YOU HAVE AND DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA'S FOR ME AS WE ARE AT A STAND STILL??????????

I use the Triple Combo from here:
http://www.obd-2.com/

It’s similar to the one used on the main site here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/eechome.htm

The basic PWM - for Ford lead they sell is no good to you as it can’t read ABS codes.

It would probably be more sensible now to buy the TRICAN since that supports later cars.

It’s not a stand alone reader – you’ll need a laptop/PC to plug it into.
If you need to buy a USB adapter for the tricom it would make sense to buy the adapter at the same time since some people have had problems with other ones.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Tompion on Aug 28^th, 2012, 8:24pm

on 08/24/12 at 09:45:20, Mike H wrote:

Whilst disconnecting the sensor & linking the pins together in the plug is good enough to pass the static test, it normally needs to be driven to put the light out if there’s an existing code or you need to have already cleared the codes – unless this controller really doesn’t store codes.

I don’t think it actually runs the pump motor during the test, however there is an error code for low battery voltage.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by DAVID_P_MARSH on Aug 28^th, 2012, 10:38pm

can any thing els come into play in this abs also any one got the wireing for the abs

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Tompion on Aug 29^th, 2012, 2:14am

Wiring diagrams are here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=admin;action=display;num=1268901956

For testing the resistance/continuity from the ABS connector back to the sensors you'll see a link at the bottom of my posts for the pin-outs of the two types of controller connectors yours being the MK1V.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by DAVID_P_MARSH on Aug 29^th, 2012, 10:00am

thanks for this i have been to the site but as i only get 27pounds a week works pension it not some thing i can aford its looking like a scraper moor and moor

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Mike H on Aug 29^th, 2012, 11:41am

This diagram I think?

ABS (https://skydrive.live.com/?cid=eb36f845ea9b8fb6&id=EB36F845EA9B8FB6%21146#cid=EB36F845EA9B8FB6&id=EB36F845EA9B8FB6%21153)

I am more or less convinced this is looking much more complicated than it really is, we seem to have established the n/s/r sensor is at fault, (move it to another wheel, fault moves with it), tried swapping ABS module, it's not that, so get the sensor part of it fixed and it should sort itself out. Not logical to scrap the car for what is really a silly electrical problem IMO.

Unfortunately being on SORN you can't drive it around so the system's got a chance to do the full rolling test as well.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Tompion on Aug 29^th, 2012, 12:26pm

Post me the sensor & I'll test it on my car.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by DAVID_P_MARSH on Aug 29^th, 2012, 3:03pm

WHAT HAPPEN IN THE SELF TEST

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Tompion on Aug 29^th, 2012, 5:02pm

The static test (ignition on not driven) tests that something is connected to all 4 wheel sensor connectors and that something is connected to the motor socket. This is a very basic test for the sensors since it will pass if the 2 pins in a sensor plug have been shorted.
How basic the motor test is I don’t know.
However if there is a sensor code stored the light probably won’t go out until the car is driven above about 15mph.

The driven test checks that a suitable signal is being generated by all 4 wheel sensors.
What sort of test is carried out on the motor I don’t know, but other than a 1095 code usually caused by a bad solder joint I’ve not heard of any other motor problems.

If the tests are passed then the light will go out in the driven test – regardless of whether there are codes stored.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Mike H on Aug 30^th, 2012, 1:52pm

Yep makes sense to me.

Yes I think the static motor test is just is it there and looks like it should work. I.e. electrical continuity

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by DAVID_P_MARSH on Aug 31^st, 2012, 5:24pm

ANY ONE HAVE ANY DEMENTIONS AND TEETH NUMBER FOR THE ABS RINGS

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Tompion on Aug 31^st, 2012, 6:12pm

If you prise off the plastic cap on the innerside of a front hub you can see the sensor ring, although from what you descibe it probably has nothing to do with your problem.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by PJDavis on Aug 31^st, 2012, 6:27pm

I've read through this for the first time, (shame on me) I've had a good few ABS problems, Tomp' in my opinion is the expert, and he makes a very valid point earlier about the difference in resistance. I had a similar experience with my off-side-front sensor wiring, and it turned out that those little joining plugs that have male/female connectors were goosed! Aye, even though they looked in good condition the soldered joint inside the plug was broken on one side and only a few strands connected on the other Near-Side-Front connector. I have since remedied this by using wet-joints for both of the front. I have heard of the rear joints under the seat doing the same and breaking-up inside the wee plug. My other thought is, like the early Rovers, is the rear ring attached to the hub with just a few spot-welds, and therefore is there a possibility that the whole ring detached and spinning free? Just a thought.

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Mike H on Sep 1^st, 2012, 12:27pm

The foregoing makes sense, note also 'fault moves with sensor' (I believe that's right?) so could be the wire leads. Then again this is the replacement one?

Need a multimeter to better understand what's going on (?)

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Tompion on Sep 2^nd, 2012, 1:06pm

David
In view of your question elsewhere about a vacuum tank under the ABS & you saying your ABS module doesn't retain codes can you confirm you have a bug-eyed scorpio as shown at the top of the page & not a Granada scorpio.

I think the part no you gave may be for the ABS pump & not the module (95GB-2M110-AC looks closer to the pump no on my car 96GG-2M110-AA than no's on modules I've seen).

The picture below is of a MK1V ABS unit fitted to a 2.0L Scorpio the round black part on top is the motor, the module is underneath & will have a different part no to the one on the motor.

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/images/absimage3.jpg

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by DAVID_P_MARSH on Sep 3^rd, 2012, 3:27pm

THIS OFFER IS OPEN TO ENYONE THAT CAN HELP GET THIS SORTED BED AND FOOD NEAR THE SOUTH COST OF PORTSMOUTH/ SOUTHSEA/ AND SURROUNDING AREA MY BE A SEA FISHING GENT THAT WOULD LIKE TO KILL TWO BIRDS AT THE SAME TIME

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by DAVID_P_MARSH on Sep 5^th, 2012, 6:47pm

we started from fitting a charged battery yesterday it was a funy day first after starting the car and turning it off the milage and petrol gauge still showed a reading it was not untill we tuched a switch did it go off this whent on for ages we had the st/col cover off found nothing at all started on the o/s rear sen spun wheel got the reading did the same on the other side got the reading. Simon decided to read fron the plug to the modual plug n/s reading o/s no reading looked like one of the wires was damaged cut wire of plugs st both end and run a new wire jouned both ends up and put every thing back run the car round the block that is simon did and he states the the light was of by the first 50 yards

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Tompion on Sep 6^th, 2012, 9:30am

Glad you've got the ABS sorted :)

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by Mike H on Sep 6^th, 2012, 11:15am

There ya go! Was a bad wire after all. Told you it was something stupidly simple. ;D

Title: Re: abs dash light on all the time HELP PLEASE
Post by DAVID_P_MARSH on Sep 6^th, 2012, 9:18pm

i would like to thank you all for your posative notes on this and all the help i must get it to the mot station asap and hope all is well