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Title: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor.godel on Apr 3rd, 2014, 4:58am Hi, My Ford Scorpio 2.3 (1997) sometimes cannot start (starter run but engine cannot start). When this situation occurs, if I take (-) wire of battery off and on, then I can immediately start the engine. I think it is PATS problem. To take off battery reset the ECU/PWM system. It is raining season now and to take off battery's wire within raining is danger. If anyone know how to bypass the PATS system? Thank you. :) |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Dave2302 on Apr 3rd, 2014, 10:06am Does not sound like PATS from your description. I pm'd you, PATS cannot be removed or bypassed. Is the PATS LED flashing a code? When you switch on the LED should come on steady then extinguish after a few seconds, if it does that there is no problem with PATS. If it comes on then goes out and then starts flashing say 6 times, stop then 6 times etc then that is code 6 and there is a problem. Code numbers are Here (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm) ;) Cheers Dave |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor.godel on Apr 3rd, 2014, 3:36pm Thank you for replies. If I turn the key to "on" pos., there usually is a 1:6 code and then trun key to "run" pos. the engine still start. But sometime there is no 1:6 code and the engine cannot start. Sometime there is 1:6 code and the engine cannot start. I got a simple OBD2 and it said "no error code saved in ECU". Regards Victor |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Dave2302 on Apr 3rd, 2014, 6:14pm OBD reader will not pull PATS codes. 1:6 means faulty communication between PATS Module and ECU, probably dodgy connection, I'd be looking at possible water ingress into Fuse Boxes, and check PATS module plug and look for signs of water. Module is behind glove box. HTH Dave |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Tompion on Apr 3rd, 2014, 10:51pm It depends on what code reader you have, a stand alone one is unlikely to read PATS, however a cheap ELM327 that plugs into a laptop should read PATS codes using Forscan software from http://forscan.org/ There are a lot of extremely cheap ELM327 readers on Ebay but if you search the net you'll find some have problems with some cars. Out of interest I bought a really cheap wireless one from Amazon for about £6.00 – It came from China and could read PATS, ABS, CCM & PCM using the Forscan software (it couldn’t read them all using the rubbish software it came with). |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor.godel on Apr 4th, 2014, 12:42am Hi, Thank you for sending me useful information. I will pull PATS out and check wire and pinout interface. My OBD2 is ELM327. I will try "forscan" software later. By the way, could anyone know the function (defination) of pinout used by EECV and PATS (the module on top of EECV). I think my EECV use C402 pinout (learned from www.fordscorpio.co.uk). I cannot find their defination. Thank you. |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by gozz on Apr 4th, 2014, 9:39am The module above the ECU is the central control module,the PATS is in a steel cage lower down to the right,and is not intended to be easily removable,in fact it is d**ned difficult.As Dave says best to start with the ECU plug,it is extremely unlikely that the PATS unit itself has been contaminated,or indeed that it has become faulty,but water can enter near the ECU and that area can suffer. |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor.godel on Apr 6th, 2014, 4:10pm Hi, The same situation occurred yesterday (starter run but engine cannot start). I pulled pinout of ECU off and on but engine still could not start. Then, as usual, I taked battery off and on then engine immediately started. As Tompion's suggestion, I use Forscan (http://forscan.org/) to connect my ELM327 (OBD2) device. I got some error codes which are not shown by another software "Torque". "Torque" got nothing in error code from my ELM327 in this case. However, all of my power windows are work fine but Forscan shown some Power Window Motor Circuit Failure. My question is that if I try to fix some problem of car, do I need to clear the error code stored in ECU/PAST and then rescan again? Or (without clear action) Forscan always read current state of error code? That is, the error codes readed from Forscan are history or current error code? Forscan got following error codes: /*********************************/ ===DTC U1147=== Code: U1147 - There is a problem with the communications link between the PATS and the PCM. Use DMM to check the communications link wiring. Module: Passive Anti-Theft System ===END DTC U1147=== ===DTC B1551=== Code: B1551 - Liftgate release circuit short to ground Module: Generic Electronic Module ===END DTC B1551=== ===DTC B2108=== Code: B2108 - Antitheft inhibit switch failure Module: Generic Electronic Module ===END DTC B2108=== ===DTC B2128=== Code: B2128 - Central Lock Motor Failure Module: Generic Electronic Module ===END DTC B2128=== ===DTC B1676=== Code: B1676 - Battery Voltage out of range Module: Generic Electronic Module Diagnostic Trouble Code details Battery Voltage out of range This code may have been set by either the use of a booster charger or a charging system fault. Use Datalogger to check the charging system voltage. ===END DTC B1676=== ===DTC B1677=== Code: B1677 - Alarm Panic Input Circuit Failure Module: Generic Electronic Module Diagnostic Trouble Code details Alarm Panic Input Circuit Failure ===END DTC B1677=== ===DTC B2212=== Code: B2212 - Panel Dim Switch Out of Range Module: Generic Electronic Module ===END DTC B2212=== ===DTC B1414=== Code: B1414 - Power Window Left Rear Motor Circuit Failure Module: Generic Electronic Module ===END DTC B1414=== ===DTC B1418=== Code: B1418 - Passenger Power Window Motor Circuit Failure Module: Generic Electronic Module ===END DTC B1418=== ===DTC B1422=== Code: B1422 - Power Window Right Rear Motor Circuit Failure Module: Generic Electronic Module ===END DTC B1422=== ===DTC C1095=== Code: C1095 - Pump Motor Circuit Failure Module: Anti-Lock Brake / Traction Control Module Diagnostic Trouble Code details Pump Motor Circuit Failure This code is set when the hydraulic pump motor has an open, short to ground or battery. This DTC may be caused by : Low voltage to the module. Damaged or contaminated connector ===END DTC C1095=== ===DTC B1676=== Code: B1676 - Battery Voltage out of range Module: Anti-Lock Brake / Traction Control Module ===END DTC B1676=== /**********************************/ |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Tompion on Apr 6th, 2014, 4:39pm I would clear the codes & see what comes back as some may be old, other people may not agree. You can clear all with Forscan or just ABS etc. I always have (Body code) B1551 - Liftgate release circuit short to ground & about 3 others – I don’t think the ones I get are a fault as such, at a guess I think they may be down to me locking the car before closing the boot & sometimes it taking a couple of goes before the car locks. Low battery could cause problems. Is the ABS light staying on? If not the (Chassis code)C1095 is likely an old one (or intermittent). |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Jonnycab on Apr 7th, 2014, 3:09am I may have been away from this forum for a while....but I still remember snippits of information & problems that I had with my 2.3 ;) Considering the age of the car & assuming that it is reasonably high mileage, I would suggest that the engine (fuel cut off) wiring loom may be the culprit of your woes & the cause of the issues you are experiencing :) Have a look at the loom where it goes to the coil packs & have a really good look at where the loom goes to the ECT, temp gauge, IAT sensors & then down (front of the inlet manifold) to the crankshaft sensor & oil pressure sensor :) |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor.godel on Apr 7th, 2014, 7:54am Hi I use Forscan to clear the error codes and re-scan when car is fine. This time I got only one code P1000. I will check it again when the engine cannot start. I will check loom wirng later. Thank you for suggestion. ===DTC P1000=== Code: P1000 - On-Board Diagnostic (OBD) Systems Readiness Test Not Complete Module: Powertrain Control Module Diagnostic Trouble Code details Check of all systems is not complete since last memory clear. --Possible Causes-- - The vehicle is new from the factory and has not yet been through a complete OBD Drive Cycle. - The battery or PCM has been disconnected. - An OBD monitor failure had occurred prior to completion of an OBD Drive Cycle. - The PCM DTCs have been cleared as part of a service process. Note: The only way P1000 can be cleared (removed) from memory is when all of the OBD monitors have been successfully completed during normal vehicle operation. P1000 cannot be cleared from the PCM when: 1. The thermostat is stuck open and a DTC is not generated. 2. There is an open VSS circuit and a DTC is not generated. 3. If the vehicle has a Power Take Off (PTO), the circuit is shorted to VPWR or B+, or the PTO is ON during Self-test. The purpose of the Diagnostic Trouble Code DTC P1000 is to indicate that not all of the On Board Diagnostics OBD monitors have yet been successfully completed. To clear P1000 in the shortest amount of time, follow the link to the OBD Drive Cycle. If the link is unavailable, the OBD Drive Cycle can also be found under Toolbox. You may also refer to the OBD Drive Cycle defined under the Powertrain Control/Emission Diagnosis Manual-Diagnostic Methods or the Owner's Manual. Remember: It is not necessary to remove P1000 from the Powertrain Control Module PCM by driving the vehicle unless it is requested by the customer to pass an inspection/maintenance test. Inform the customer of the need for additional driving when legally required to pass an inspection/maintenance test. ===END DTC P1000=== |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Dave2302 on Apr 7th, 2014, 8:29am Pin 21 PATS goes to pin 16 ECU Pin 22 PATS goes to pin 15 ECU These 2 wires are the SCP Protocol com line, and also Tee off to other modules such as CCM etc so you can read codes and program ;) HTH Cheers Dave |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Tompion on Apr 7th, 2014, 12:34pm Check all earth wires are in place at the battery. Mine has 4 wires in total, 2 to the main connector & 2 to another connector. I believe people have had one slip under the battery or whatever making a bad earth - possibly remaking when you disturb the battery. |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor.godel on Apr 7th, 2014, 3:50pm Hi Jonnycab, Good point. I will check loom later. Hi Tompion, Thank you for suggestion. I checked my earth line. There are four earth lines. Do you know how to solve error code P1000? Hi Dave and Gozz, So, the module top on PCM/EEC-V is CCM. The PATS is located on right of EEC-V? Thank you. |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Tompion on Apr 7th, 2014, 4:07pm P1000 isn’t a problem, it just means the engine hasn't relearned the values of the sensors under various driving conditions. It will clear after driving once all the conditions have been met. It would have been there each time you disconnected the battery – you just didn’t know it. From your previous post: "Note: The only way P1000 can be cleared (removed) from memory is when all of the OBD monitors have been successfully completed during normal vehicle operation." |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Tompion on Apr 7th, 2014, 4:17pm Here's details on the drive cycle: http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/drivecycle.htm Normal driving will do it as long as all sensors are OK & the engine is up to temperature. |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor.godel on Apr 7th, 2014, 4:57pm Hi Tompion, Thank you for reply. I will try drive cycle later. By the way, Scorpio is a good car, but water hole under the battery causes problems. Months ago, water flowed into car from this area. |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Tompion on Apr 7th, 2014, 6:13pm It’s not uncommon for water to enter the inside of the car where the fusebox wires enter & get on the connections of the electronics causing problems with the engine. If you’ve had water in that’s quite likely where the problem lies. I assume you have a battery cover fitted. |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor.godel on Apr 8th, 2014, 1:30am Hi, Yes, my battery cover still stays there. Now, P1000 code is cleared. There are no code in DTC section of "Forscan". I did some tests in TESTS section of "Forscan". In item "Key On Engine Running On Demand Self-Test" of TESTS section, I got Code P1703 - Brake Switch Out of Self Test Range". I think that is a minor problem. I take some picture of CCM and EECV. http://i.imgur.com/upmjBGL.jpg?1 http://i.imgur.com/cwLLz7O.jpg http://i.imgur.com/Adrb26R.jpg http://i.imgur.com/oqyHC6d.jpg?1 http://i.imgur.com/8LXfXNZ.jpg http://i.imgur.com/erK5drI.jpg?1 http://i.imgur.com/TnXog6V.jpg http://i.imgur.com/YTsnu5q.jpg?1 http://i.imgur.com/IoJLhDe.jpg?3 http://i.imgur.com/HSKjJG8.jpg?1 |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Dave2302 on Apr 8th, 2014, 5:44pm They look OK, but problem will not be in CCM anyway, it has no interaction with PATS, nor does burglar alarm functions, apart from sharing the same LED................. You can remove CCM from car and it will still start ;) Cheers Dave |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Tompion on Apr 8th, 2014, 8:14pm Judging by the rust stain on the case the first thing you need to do is fix the leak in that area. Whilst not of any relevance to your problem if you didn’t press and release the brake correctly during the engine running test you will get a P1703 code. |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor.godel on Apr 9th, 2014, 1:19am Hi Dave, Thank you for reply. > You can remove CCM from car and it will still start This fact surprises me. I found two little black boxes beside EECV. Are they PATS? There are two thin earth lines connected on battery. Do you know where are they go? I think two thick earth lines connect to starter and generator. on 04/08/14 at 17:44:31, Dave2302 wrote:
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor.godel on Apr 9th, 2014, 1:48am Hi Tompion, Thank you. I had fixed my leak and I will keep observing this problem. Months ago, mechanic used wood flour, plastic board and glue to rebuild the battery room (since battery room have been corroded and water flowed inside car from hole). So, the rust stain on the case you saw is wood flour. And you are right on P1703 code. I try engine running test again with correctly pressing and releasing the brake. There is no any code on "Forscan" now. on 04/08/14 at 20:14:37, Tompion wrote:
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Dave2302 on Apr 9th, 2014, 9:35am PATS says PATS on it lol ;) Not sure where them earths go, it's been a while ;) I expect one of them goes to BJB and other one to body. They will be shown on the wiring diagrams in TIS or on this site ;) Cheers Dave |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor.godel on Apr 9th, 2014, 3:08pm Hi Dave, What are BJB and TIS? By the way, Forscan is greate for Ford Scorpio. |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Dave2302 on Apr 11th, 2014, 9:43am BJB is Battery Junction Box (the oblong fuse and relay box under the bonnet). TIS is Technical Information System (can be purchased on disc fromEBay). TIS contains all sorts of useful stuff including wiring diagrams and workshop manuals. |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor.godel on Apr 12th, 2014, 7:20am Hi Dave, Thank you for reply. I pull the little black box (in fact, a terminator) off, then there is the error code U1147 -- "There is a problem with the communications link between the PATS and the PCM. Use DMM to check the communications link wiring. " And the engine cannot start (but starter motor running). When I put the terminator back, engine can start again. |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Dave2302 on Apr 12th, 2014, 9:23am From 2 of my previous posts................ on 04/07/14 at 08:29:55, Dave2302 wrote:
;) |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor.godel on Apr 16th, 2014, 3:50am Hi, I am looking for PATS module. Is the red arrow point PATS module in following picture (cut from Cosray's album (http://bit.ly/oFQWOS)). http://i.imgur.com/tEf4EG2.png Thank you. |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Dave2302 on Apr 16th, 2014, 10:14am Your car parts are back to front, because it is a LHD, but that looks like it. It should have a sticker with part number and says "PATS" on it, just so the car theif can find it ;D |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor.godel on Apr 17th, 2014, 2:01am But it is difficult to remove the bracket (three nuts) shown in step 6 of the following PDF. ;D That is, I cannot find middle nut (numbered 2). Is it covered by a thick iron sheet? http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/electrical/antitheft/PATSmodule.pdf And I think the car shown in the PDF is Right Hand Drive (RHD). If LHD it should be this one: http://i.imgur.com/SDrwHSM.png on 04/16/14 at 10:14:27, Dave2302 wrote:
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Andycan on Apr 17th, 2014, 6:23pm I would say it is on the top of the metal cradle under the wiring loom |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor. on Apr 18th, 2014, 1:41am Hi, Thank you for reply. I release the screws numbered 1 and 3 but cannot find 2. Does anyone have the pictures of standalone metal cradle? Thus, I can find the position of the screw numbered 2. Thank you. on 04/17/14 at 18:23:28, Andycan wrote:
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by victor. on May 15th, 2014, 4:56pm Hi, I finally solve the problem. I use sandpaper to sanding all connectors of (-) end of battery. The black CuO was cleaned. Then, there is no starting problem anymore. I think one of (-) line from battery concern the problem. Maybe one (-) line direct connect from battery to PATS. Now, Scorpio 2.3 starts easily every time. Thank you for all replies. |
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Title: Re: Scorpio 2.3 (1997) cannot start Post by Snoopy on May 16th, 2014, 7:13am So pleased you got it sorted out. Well done ;D |
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