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        General >> Problems >> Strange cattle grid effect
        
(Message started by: Glyn on May 14^th, 2014, 11:46pm)

Title: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Glyn on May 14^th, 2014, 11:46pm

2 weeks down to and around Cornwall 1300 miles with no problems until last 2 days ABS/TC lights showing. No.2 Cossie 66K miles.
Set off for home after about 90 miles re-engaged cruise control which cancelled itself after about 5 mins at about 60mph (full load including roof rack).
ResetCC which cancelled after about30 secs. Reset it and after about 15 secs it dropped out again and felt the vibration as though going over those strips you get before some roundabouts. Took handy exit and stopped -the rumble died away below 15-25 mph. Looked round and under the car but nothing obvious- no fluid and levels ok.
Started off again up the M5 and when engaged CC same result with the rumble appearing on reset3,took next exit op to roundabout had to stop at lights and straight back on to motorway -no rumble .
Gradually increased speed until running at 60-70 and no problem-did not touch CC and uneventful 300 miles, one stop of 40mins.
Read the cattle grid section and not quite the same as most experiences. Going to read OBD and see what comes up.
Any ideas ???

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Simmo on May 15^th, 2014, 7:06am

Yes. It's well documented Here (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cattle.htm) :) :(

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Glyn on May 15^th, 2014, 9:23pm

OBD reads
5175 speed sensor rear left
5178 speed sensor rear left
5095 unknown DTC
5495 TCS motor

Any ideas folks?

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Tompion on May 15^th, 2014, 11:17pm

I imagine faulty information from the rear sensor is causing the TC to brake that wheel (and cause the CC to cancel) giving the cattle grid effect. Although you wouldn’t expect that to happen if the ABS/TC light is on. It’s possible you have wires shorting in the ABS/TC loom, however I’d suggest cleaning that rear sensor. The rear ones are prone to picking up magnetic particles. The sensor ring can be checked for debris through the hole although I’ve never found anything to worry about (you can clean the sensor with the wheel on but not the sensor ring).
I don’t have TC so no direct experience of it, I’d suggest after cleaning the sensor clearing the codes & see what comes back. If there really is a TC motor (or its wiring) fault you may not be able to clear it.

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Tompion on May 15^th, 2014, 11:41pm

I've been trying to find those codes but not having any luck and my laptop battery is about to run out. They seem a bit odd what reader are you using.

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Glyn on May 16^th, 2014, 1:43am

I didn't read the codes myself-it was my local auto electrician and I think the name was Autodiagnos pro.
Interestingly found the following codes on their website-
C1175 Spd sensor L rear Input Circuit Failure
C1178 Spd sensor L rear coherency failure
C1095 ABS Hydraulic pump circuit failure
C1495 TCS motor potentiometer failure
Coincidence ??
With regard to the TC it shares an enlarged ABS module with 2 extra pistons presumably to apply the brake to the slipping rear wheel so I assume it shares the ABS pump.
When the TC operates it pushes the throttle pedal back up against your foot quite firmly to take the power off. Maybe a TC motor does this. Another enquiry for my guy !

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Tompion on May 16^th, 2014, 8:27am

Yes that looks like the correct codes C (chasis) codes starting with 1.

Whether or not my thoughts on the TCS causing the cattlegrid effect is possible I don’t know (just trying to fit it to your symptoms), having thought about it you can of course turn off the TC so easy enough to test.

I’d certainly clean the rear sensors first.

It’s possible some codes are old as the ABS doesn’t require them to be cleared for the light to go out once the faults have gone. If one is C1095 then it is quite likely a failing solder connection in the module.

It is now possible to get a cheap ABS reader (need a laptop) so worth getting one if it it’s expensive to get your codes read.

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by scorpio_man on May 16^th, 2014, 4:48pm

hi there

re the T/C. if memory serves me right, the traction control on the scorpio is very basic.

all it does is pull up the throttle pedal. you'll find the little motor that does the pulling of the throttle cable if you follow it back from the throttle housing.

doesn't do anything with the brakes, iirc.

hth

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Tompion on May 16^th, 2014, 7:53pm

Fading memory I think :)

The TC controller has extra coils and the valve block extra valves & according to the Technical training manual TC cars have independent rear hydraulic lines whereas non-TC have a shared line.

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Scorpio_Mike on May 16^th, 2014, 8:50pm

Got to agree with Tompion - TC is actuated by extra 'gubbins' in the ABS unit ;)

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by gozz on May 16^th, 2014, 11:47pm

on 05/16/14 at 16:48:12, scorpio_man wrote:

The cable is for the cruise control Andrew,the operating unit is fitted to the offside of the radiator.

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Glyn on May 17^th, 2014, 2:21am

Thanks everyone
Tompion-I agree place to start is rear wheel sensor and work from there. My man says possibly, as you did, that there may be a wiring short.
The non TC ABS unit has 4 solenoid/pistons as far as I recall but I'll check.
ps I do have a Snap-on scanner but he read the codes for nothing -with 3 scorps, a Fiesta and an MGB (must be sold this year) he is trying to keep me sweet as I think I'm his pension fund !!!

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Simmo on May 17^th, 2014, 6:31am

Glynn. I'm sure you are right and if you look at the wiring diagrams (https://onedrive.live.com/?cid=EB36F845EA9B8FB6&id=EB36F845EA9B8FB6%21146) it is clear to see the difference.

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Glyn on May 18^th, 2014, 8:39pm

Quite right Simmo, thanks,
Tompion I have looked at the hydraulic lines on a non-TC and there are 5, one a little larger than the other 4. I presume therefore one for each wheel, I don't see how it would work with a shared line for the rear wheels.
I tried cruise yesterday for about 2 miles=no problem even with ABS and TC lights on.
Scanned today and got codes for rear wheel sensor L and pump.
Tested sensor -open circuit.
Connected sensor from other car (without fitting it) cleared codes -still had ABS TC lights on.
Started engine-lights went out- checked and no codes.
So now we are getting somewhere and need a sensor
I have searched the net , front ones are everywhere but rear ones are gold hens' teeth style and about £95 listed but no one seems to have them and I need 2 (one for the other cossie)
Until I get all the sensors ok I guess I can't check the pump :-/

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Tompion on May 18^th, 2014, 11:24pm

The 5 hydraulic lines are 2 in 3 out.

For the non-TC & TC hydraulic layouts see from page 82 of the manual (91 of the pdf) here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=admin;action=display;num=1290587487

Quote
ABS
“The new Mk IV GI ABS has been developed as a split braking system with three control circuits.

The split is as in the past between the front and rear, the front wheels being controlled separately”

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Glyn on May 18^th, 2014, 11:56pm

Thanks for that,now I get it. Does the TC operate only the throttle ? I presume the ABS operates on all wheels independently on the ones with TC does it

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Tompion on May 19^th, 2014, 12:31am

No it says it closes the throttle and applies the brake to the wheel in question.

It doesn't appear to say whether the ABS works seperately on rear wheels of TC versions.

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Glyn on May 21^st, 2014, 12:01am

Thanks Tompion, and I think you are right that some of the codes were historical.
Thanks to all, I have now fitted new rear wheel speed sensor and cleared the codes, done a short drive round the block and no abs/tc lights.
Not tried TC yet.

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by a900one on May 21^st, 2014, 9:44pm

Have you put any new tyres on. I recently put on two new tyres and had some strange things happening, if I went over about 40 mph the traction control kept cutting in. I had to put them on the front in the end.

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Glyn on May 22^nd, 2014, 1:57am

No, didn't do anything. Had it serviced about 5 weeks and 1200 miles previously.
When I changed the faulty sensor I found it is damaged and looks as though it has been hitting the ring

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Tompion on May 22^nd, 2014, 9:55am

If the face of the sensor is concave you need to check the wheel bearing, although the sensor could have been damaged from a previous bearing failure & only just started to play up.

Edit
Just looked back at the codes you had, too big a gap between the sensor & sensor ring can give coherency codes:
C1178 Spd sensor L rear coherency failure

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Glyn on May 23^rd, 2014, 12:43am

Thanks Tompion, I did have a try whilst I was changing the sensor but I couldn't feel any play.
Interesting info re the code and the gap. Thanks.

Title: Re: Strange cattle grid effect
Post by Glyn on Jun 13^th, 2014, 9:07pm

Update.
Short run round block produced rolling ABS fault.
Stripped it down again and found new wheel sensor face damaged slightly (it was a short drive.)
Had another go at the wheel bearing this time with the hand brake off and found lots of play.
Cutting the story short, the wheel bearing was shot, the hub badly damaged and the ABS module had to have the motor pins soldered.
New bearing, new hub, and a bit of solder and all seems to be well but not tried it yet on a longer run with the
cruise control-yet !