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        General >> Problems >> jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
        
(Message started by: tiggerlit on Nov 4^th, 2015, 11:11pm)

Title: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by tiggerlit on Nov 4^th, 2015, 11:11pm

hi guys need some help again please
got a 2.3 ultima automatic
dont the head gasket and timming chain and when driving above 1.5 revs its a beauty but below that its really bad.
its burning fuel on low revs and jumping like a kangaroo.
took it to the garage they done the following
head gasket test ok
chambers checked all ok
timming checked ok
inlet and out let pressure test checked ok
full dionostic done ok says nothing wrong (sorry for the spelling)
and the garage is baffled. they have kept the car to see what else it could be
any ideas what it could be thanks

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Simmo on Nov 5^th, 2015, 9:36am

Read the section on Poor Idle (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/faultfinds.htm) I'd suggest the most likely cause is to do with the wiring having been disturbed during the work you describe. Have you cleaned the MAF and is it connected?. It has happened before that the connector has not been replaced after removal as it falls down out of sight behind the rad. Such a fault should show though in a diagnostic test. :)

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by tiggerlit on Nov 6^th, 2015, 6:16pm

its had a new maf
and the garage is saying its a machanic fault as their machine is saying no fault electric wise.
he says after fitting a new maf that its a bit better but not 100% and that its still miss firing on idle.
hes also saying that he thinks the bottom camshafts bearings are noisy and could be causing the problem, but when hubby first done the timming it was perfect except the rattling of the plastic guide that had broke. so he had to take it all off again to replace the plastic guide and this is when it started to have problems.
any ideas guys as not sure if i should trust what the mechanic says and i havent got money for them to mess around if you know what i mean, thanks

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Andycan on Nov 6^th, 2015, 11:12pm

I am not familiar with the 2.3 scorpio setup but I would have checked the maff and connectors and seals also the vacuum pipes and wiring. I would also get a second opinion from a different garage. Maybe another member might pop over to you to check the codes and have a look? I am sure there are some near you. I know there were some at Guildford and Woking and Southampton way so a nice ride out if it is a nice day lol.

Like Simmo said it sounds like something was dislodged when the work was done on it.

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by PJDavis on Nov 7^th, 2015, 12:09am

How far have you driven the car since the work? You know that with these blasted cars,you might have to drive as much as 20 miles in ONE-GO to make sure their ignition-map is complete? That would include country driving, motorway driving etc. I didn't realise this until short ago when I got a new gearbox fitted, and Dave the gearbox man told me. Once it took 30 miles for the codes to clear.

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Glyn on Nov 7^th, 2015, 2:30am

Well said Peter, I can confirm that. I had some work done on one of my 24v's and on driving it home from the garage I thought it was going to die on me a couple of times in heavy very slow moving traffic. I phoned my garage guy (who worked for years in a Ford main dealers and grew up with the scorpios) and he immediately told me he was sorry but he had not had time for a test drive which he explained he usually does if the battery has been disconnected, so that that the ECU etc are re-programmed. He said that I had not driven far enough (4 miles) or a varied speed etc for the car to re learn the values of sensors etc. He told me that there is actually a schedule for re-programming but no one used it preferring the alternative of taking the car for a good drive, at least ten miles, preferably 20. Doing that solved the problem of course.
He said it should be done even if the battery has not been disconnected if a new component has been fitted (eg a throttle position sensor) as the car has to learn the new values as it will still be trying to compensate for the component which was failing.
Hope that makes sense, I know what I mean anyway. Apologies if it's confusing.
Glyn

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by tiggerlit on Nov 25^th, 2015, 4:45pm

hi sorry i havent replied lately the car has been at the garage for 3 weeks now and have only just got it back with the same problem still.
ive read the bit on the site about a 24v idle problem, does the 2.3 16v have the washers?
it seemed ok when we picked it up there was no problem but after a few mins when it got warm it started again so it seems to happen when the engine gets warm.
all the sensors have been replaced and hasnt changed it.
got back and had to go straight out again and now when its ilde not only is it jumping the lights are flickering.
the other thing is when hubby went to put the plunger in he dropped it and set it off. but between him and my dad they surpressed it again and fitted it, could that be the problem the plunger was brand new
thanks guys

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Glyn on Nov 25^th, 2015, 7:42pm

Not familiar with the 2.3, but have had the problem with the 24v. It was due to a cracked T piece in the vacuum pipes and took ages to find (behind the cylinder head on the 24v). Seems that when cold the revs were held high enough for it not to matter but as soon as it warmed up and the revs dropped to normal idle the idle became erratic and even stalled.
Anybody think this could be similar?
By the way, plunger??
Glyn

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by PJDavis on Nov 25^th, 2015, 9:40pm

Yep, Glyn is right, vacuum problem me now thinks.

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by tiggerlit on Nov 25^th, 2015, 10:33pm

hi thanks for that does anyone know where the t piece is on the 2.3
also the plunger is the bomb

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Andycan on Nov 26^th, 2015, 7:53pm

I am not sure if this helps but it does have a vacuum T piece.
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/ubconns.htm

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Andycan on Nov 26^th, 2015, 7:59pm

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pooridle.htm

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by tiggerlit on Nov 26^th, 2015, 11:31pm

hi thanks for the links.
we think we have narrowed the problem down.
it dosent do it in park but when you first put it in drive to drive off it starts like if you are at a juntion so we are thinking of the sensor on the auto gearbox think its the trs sensor what do you think?

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Jonnycab on Nov 27^th, 2015, 3:54am

As a former owner of pair of 2.3's (but not for a couple of years now), then I'm going to try & remember the reasons why there would be a lumpy idle....it's still in the archives at the back of my mind somewhere....so here we go...

Obvious things....

.....Idle control valve sticking, faulty or not sealed to the inlet manifold (should be a rubber gasket).
.....EGR pipe to inlet manifold vacuum leak
.....Ignition coils (especially under load)
.....spark plugs

......and that good old reason why every 2.3 goes wrong....the engine wiring loom !....Also known as the 'fuel cut off loom'. These things don't last the years & any evidence of cracked or broken wire insulation anywhere on the loom is a sure sign that your 2.3 will soon become a driveway ornament until it's replaced ::)

Hope this helps :)

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by GrahamT on Nov 27^th, 2015, 4:36am

Every 2.3 ?? shush shush now, she might hear you and get upset. I've done loads of jobs on mine, mainly beating the rust and keeping the wheels connected but the engine has never given me any grief at all. Touch wood. ;D

How about a seized air con compressor?

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Nunnspoet on Nov 27^th, 2015, 7:53am

Hi all

Yup, with those symptoms, and with regard to my own experiences as above, I suggest removing the Compressor belt, going for a drive around for a whhille to see what happens. Not having the Compressor on line won't do any harm.

Mike :)

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by PJDavis on Nov 27^th, 2015, 6:16pm

I'm with everything Jonny says! ;)

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by GrahamT on Nov 28^th, 2015, 2:06am

If there was any issue with the wiring I would have thought some error codes would be present?
I think the best thing would be to start again with the basic checks and firstly double, triple check the cam timing and do a compression test.

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by tiggerlit on Jan 16^th, 2016, 3:54pm

hi guys guess what still got the problem :-/
we have replaced all the sensors going.
the obd2 reads p0171
where is the pcv valve plz
thanks

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Simmo on Jan 16^th, 2016, 4:42pm

P0171 (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/codes.htm) indicates the system is too lean IE: there is probably an air leak as has been suggested in other posts. ;)

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Tompion on Jan 16^th, 2016, 5:28pm

The positive crankcase ventilation or PCV is behind the exhaust manifold it connects via a tube that runs round the back of the engine into the rear of the inlet manifold.

You can see it in the bottom drawing of page 2 of this PDF:

http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/engines/dohc16v/DOHC16VDismant.pdf

At the bottom of the drawing slightly to the right of the manifold it's the angled canister connected to a pipe that goes around the back of the engine to the inlet.

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by tiggerlit on Jan 16^th, 2016, 7:15pm

thanks for that tompion. will get him to look at that tomorrow.
we have checked all the pipes etc and cant find a leak or is there a way or something you could use to see if theres a leak.
thanks again everyone

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Tompion on Jan 16^th, 2016, 8:05pm

I find using a length of ¼” bore tube to your ear like a stethoscope works well, I found a manifold leak on my Granada that way – whereas spraying WD40 or using gas around the vacuum pipes etc as often suggested didn’t cause the revs to change.

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by tiggerlit on Jan 19^th, 2016, 1:45am

dont believe it looks like the head has gone again hubby not happy. he only done it 5 months ago :'(

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by PJDavis on Jan 19^th, 2016, 3:52pm

Really, Cylinder-Head? I'm surprised. I would have thought there would be signs like, water-in-oil (Emulsion, or slight increase in oil on dipstick) Oil-in-water, (streaks of oil in expansion tank, or the look of glycerine) maybe the temp-gauge slightly higher reading, more than usual amount of steam from exhaust, (taste or smell exhaust fumes for anti-freeze smell) Don't go stripping the head off until your very sure. You need to do a cylinder-head-leakage test.
Hth
Pete

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Andycan on Jan 19^th, 2016, 9:22pm

If your compression test shows plenty of compression and there are none of the signs that PJ has just mentioned then that would suggest it isn't a headgasket problem.

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by tiggerlit on Jan 21^st, 2016, 9:41pm

hi the compression test done 3 months ago was 200 each cylinder i think.
theres just a bit of oil going through the water system.
replced the pcv valve and grommit and still hasnt solved the problem.
the only thing i will say its only got 1 oxygen sensor where everywhere says 2
but ours only has one.
we have gone through the list which can cause the code 0171 and have replced everything but still no joy.
which brings me back to the tensioner (the bomb) hubby dropped it when doing the timing and it went off. so my dad took the clip off that holds it not the spring. he managed to close it and use it still on the chain system. i keep thingits that but dont know why. please please someone help, we have a £900 garage bill we have spent over £700 ourselves and still we have a car that dont want. oh and we havent paid the garage yet still trying to find the money.
it dosent do it in reserve or in park, but the moment its in drive it starts and you can smell the petrol. but as soon as you put your foot down on the pedal its fine. and its perfect. thanks for reading

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by tiggerlit on Jan 21^st, 2016, 10:21pm

just for a laugh put the obd code thing in and it now says p1409 which is the egr valve system. but the p0171 has gone

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Nunnspoet on Jan 22^nd, 2016, 9:46am

Hi, I have two 24valve Scorpios and I removed the EGR from both of them some years ago. Where the EGR connects to the Exhaust pipe I found that a 1p coin fits perfectly into the orifice in the Exhaust pipe, so, using the the EGR pipe with the olive and clamp intact I bolted it onto the Exhaust pipe ensuring that I tightened the securing bolts evenly to form a good seal.

The above applies to the fixing at the Inlet Plenum end except that there is no handy Olive, so you will need to blank the orifice on the Plenum. For the life of me I can't remember what I used but someone will will..

I have had no adverse effects only positive. No related fault codes, much improved MPG and much smoother tick-over 8) A huge improvement.

Mike :)

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by PJDavis on Jan 22^nd, 2016, 12:06pm

Even if the Cylinder-Head-Gasket has gone, I wouldn't expect this behaviour. Although not good news you're seeing oil in the water, if it's only a tiny bit, you can hope that it's just residue from the last gasket change where the cooling system wasn't flushed properly.

Yep, I'd be going for something EGR.

Pete

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Nunnspoet on Jan 22^nd, 2016, 2:42pm

I I've had another thought (Carol would be getting worried now :-/). 8). Remove the belt that drives the Air Con pump, a 5min. job and take her around the block...see what happens. The Pumps on both of my Cossies started to seize up causing the Engines to stall.

If no change, 5mins to replace the belt.....I had no fault Codes telling me of that problem.

Mike. :)

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Tompion on Jan 22^nd, 2016, 3:53pm

Re: only one sensor.

Most 2.3's only have the pre cat oxygen sensor fitted. A blanking plug is fitted in the downstream hole.

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by tiggerlit on Jan 24^th, 2016, 11:18pm

well today we fixed it well sort of lol we took the camshaft sensor off and the car ran like a dream put a new sensor in and the problem came back, so took it off and again sweet as a nut as some would say lol. whats the worse that could happen now ?????

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by GrahamT on Jan 25^th, 2016, 2:27am

So, without the correct data, the ECU is guessing based on other inputs, eg crankshaft sensor?
Got to be a timing issue hasn't it?
Would the timing change (eg a different map used?) in Reverse compared to Drive?
Worst that can happen? really bad MPG? Increased engine wear? If it's running lean (as one of the fault codes indicated) cylinder head problems?? (educated guesses).
Hope someone else can come up with something more solid for you :-/

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by Tompion on Jan 25^th, 2016, 2:50pm

My 2.3 will run fine with the cam sensor disconnected. It is used to give precise firing of the fuel injectors. Whether the ECU works out which stroke is which by other means or just changes from sequential fuel injection to firing them in pairs I don’t know. It shouldn’t cause problems but could have an effect on fuel consumption & possibly emissions if it’s already close to the limits.

Loom damage is a possible cause – check the wires to the cam sensor haven’t been trapped at any time in the cover.

The sensor is triggered by a lobe on the exhaust cam, whether it’s possible to be a tooth out and run fine but upset the injection I don’t know.

You haven’t said if this problem has always been there since you fitted the chain or it has developed over time.

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by tiggerlit on Jan 26^th, 2016, 1:17am

it started after the second time of doing the time chain.

Title: Re: jumping on low revs, garage puzzled
Post by PJDavis on Jan 29^th, 2016, 3:23pm

on 01/26/16 at 01:17:15, tiggerlit wrote:

it started after the second time of doing the time chain.

Aha! Then you would be advised to re-visit how the timing chain was fitted, and if it is in the correct position.