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        General >> Problems >> non starting
        
(Message started by: reedyone on Dec 3^rd, 2016, 2:09pm)

Title: non starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 3^rd, 2016, 2:09pm

hi, I'm new to the scorpio world but have a 24 valve cosworth 96 estate ultima with 79 thou miles on it, the problem is sometimes when you go to start it, it just turns over and fails to fire. I have discovered if I disconnect the battery for 10 seconds it will then start , there seems no pattern to when it happens and it can do it when hot or cold . it can go days without a problem !

Title: Re: non starting
Post by Simmo on Dec 3^rd, 2016, 3:06pm

Firstly welcome to the site. :)
The most common cause of non starting is the battery is either too small, needs charging, or is worn out. These cars need a lot of power to start them although the engine may turn over as you describe. Have a read of This page (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/battery.htm).

If you click on the FORD SCORPIO banner at the top of this page it will take you to the front page of the site. There you will see a number of 'option buttons' and if you click on Fault Finder that may also help.

Let us know how you get on as there is a wealth of knowledge on the site and amongst the members who will be pleased to help. ;)

It might also help to indicate where you are located in case there is anyone local to you who might offer assistance if you need it.

Title: Re: none starting
Post by PJDavis on Dec 3^rd, 2016, 11:35pm

Have you ever seen the dials spin around the gauges before you turn the key for starting?

Title: Re: none starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 4^th, 2016, 12:40pm

cheers for the reply's, I don't think its a battery fault cos its new and has loads of power, even when it wont start it turns over fast , I don't normally see the gauges spin across there dial but it does happen after I need to disconnect the + lead for 10 seconds so that it will start I have a feeling the alarm is disabling the engine from starting even thought the remote seems to be working ok .

Title: Re: none starting
Post by a900one on Dec 4^th, 2016, 1:17pm

When it wont start, have you tried locking and unlocking, and see if it will start then. Also check fuel cutout switch in boot, its near the catch the red button.
Gerald.

Title: Re: none starting
Post by Simmo on Dec 4^th, 2016, 1:36pm

Fuel cut off switch (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/fuel/general/FuelShutOff.pdf)

Title: Re: none starting
Post by Tompion on Dec 4^th, 2016, 3:09pm

I think in older threads this (starting after battery disconnect) has been caused by poor connection to the EDIS or the shielded wires to it needing replacing.

Title: Re: none starting
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Dec 4^th, 2016, 4:02pm

Sounds like it could be a problem with the insulation on the injector wiring loom causing intermittent shorting.

Title: Re: none starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 4^th, 2016, 4:49pm

ive checked the fuel cut off and seems ok , EDIS ? this is my first car with computers running things I'm used to old landrovers and ford zephyr's ! I've never owned a 'modern ' car ! what is and where is the EDIS ? I'm ok with standard wiring and mechanics'but I'm not up to speed with all abbreviation's on sensors err yet I'm a fast learner ........ps locking and unlocking has no effect either with the master key or fob.

Title: Re: none starting
Post by Simmo on Dec 4^th, 2016, 5:09pm

Have a look at This thread (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=Problems;action=display;num=1455976780;start=8#8). EDIS is mentioned if you scroll through. :)

The next step is Read this (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/eecv.htm) where you will see the Electronics mentioned. ???

Then there is More (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/hardcore.htm) :)

Title: Re: none starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 5^th, 2016, 1:50pm

ooh my god ! the space shuttle didn't have this much stuff !its as clear as mud now .....

Title: Re: none starting
Post by Andycan on Dec 5^th, 2016, 4:01pm

That is what you get with computers running cars lol. if you were closer to me I would have come up and checked it out for you and bought a good loom with me just in case.

Easy one is check all the wires under the bonnet where they go into the connectors/ sensors and if the insulation has gone then you need to check inside the loom and repair them all or at least insulate them.

Title: Re: none starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 5^th, 2016, 11:12pm

cheers ill do that at the weekend cos I go to work in the dark and get home in the dark ! I don't use it for work anyway cos I still have the discovery 1 for that ! ill keep you all informed with progress !!

Title: Re: none starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 11^th, 2016, 2:05am

right then what a day ! ive unplugged every connector and plug in sight under the bonnet sprayed switch cleaner in every one . had the battery checked even though its new and that's ok as well . the fuse boxes are all dry but I checked every fuse one by one all ok. tried the car and guess what ? the git just turned over without starting !!! disconnected the battery for 20 seconds and vroom first time ! what is the significance of the dials going round when you turn the ignition on ? mine only do it after I have had to disconnect the batt , normally they don't but the car will still start sometimes ?is something not shutting down when I turn it off ? could it be the alarm ? it triggered twice in half an hour on Friday night for no reason then has been ok since, could the sensor in the ignition switch be faulty ie not 'seeing' the key ?

Title: Re: none starting
Post by Glyn on Dec 11^th, 2016, 3:12am

It is normal for the dials to spin round when turning the ignition on after disconnecting the battery, as the instrument cluster resets. It will happen if the voltage from the battery falls below a certain level.
The fact that the engine turns over should mean that the system has recognised the key- if you used a correctly cut key that had not been programed to the car, everything would light up but the starter would not operate as I understand it.("some models") but all three of mine are the same.
Have a read of the "Security PATS" article on the main site -pick "about the car, technology, security PATS" Here (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pats.htm)

Title: Re: none starting
Post by Simmo on Dec 11^th, 2016, 7:33am

The bonnet switch is a common cause of the alarm going off. It is situated in the slam panel by the bonnet release catch. If you've been opening and shutting the bonnet, as no doubt you have, it may be worth checking it and applying some WD 40 or switch cleaner.:)

There is also more information about sensors etc. Here (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/electrical/antitheft/antitheftdesc.pdf). :)

Title: Re: none starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 11^th, 2016, 12:57pm

update !I think the alarm and immobiliser are ok as the link says the engine would not crank if it wasn't getting code from key but it does crank. after further investigation ive narrowed it down to disconnecting just the lead to the aux fuse box does the trick , ive doubled checked all fuse's cleaning every one in turn and also all the pins on the relays , I have a sneaky feeling it must be the injection pump relay is sticking off , the next time it wont start ill try too see if that's the case ,I'm open to suggestions !

Title: Re: none starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 11^th, 2016, 5:25pm

another update, pulling the relays make s no difference ! but something clicks when you pull the power lead off ,put it back on and it starts >:( strange but the click sounds like its coming from the drivers side mite not even have owt to do with it ? proper puzzler this one !!

Title: Re: none starting
Post by Tompion on Dec 11^th, 2016, 7:36pm

Did you find the EDIS (electronic Distributorless Ignition System) & check it's connection.
On the 2.3 it's not obvious where it is & by the look of this page it's in much the same place on the 24v - item A23 in the second diagram here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/24vlooms.htm

On the 2.3 it's behind the headlght under the header tank - it might be easier to unbolt the header & move it to one side.

Title: Re: none starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 12^th, 2016, 8:01pm

thanks for the reply Tompion, I have tried the EDIS and all wires and plug seem to look ok. came n tonight and it started perfect for 7-8 times ,champion I thought but I went out 5 mins ago and it wont start again ! there's no pattern to it sometimes you get one start then no more and other times it starts every time

Title: Re: none starting
Post by Tompion on Dec 13^th, 2016, 1:10am

There are 3 shielded wires that run from the EDIS to the PCM (Powertrain Control Module) people have reported problems with these & had to replace them, I'll see if I can find the posts later.

Title: Re: none starting
Post by Nunnspoet on Dec 13^th, 2016, 9:15am

A quick check to see that the front ashtray light is not adrift and shorting out may help. I had all sorts of problems with one of my 24 valve Cossies, including the Engine spinning over but not firing up, sidelights staying on....it was a nightmare but eventually re-connecting the ashtray bulb holder solved all the problems instantly.

Good luck

Mike

Title: Re: none starting
Post by Tompion on Dec 13^th, 2016, 12:45pm

Below is a post that was on the mailing list. The PIP and SAW referred to is the signal from the crank sensor you can look details up on Google. What he did was leave the rest of the loom & run an independent shielded cable between the plugs of the EDIS & PCM. According to the wiring diagrams the pins on the EDIS are 1.White/Black 3.White/Violet 4.White/Red so at least check they're not corroded.
The pins on the PCM are 49.White/Black 50.White/Violet 23.White/Red & the shield to earth from pin 25.Black/Orange

If I ever spill antifreeze, screen wash, brake fluid etc I always pour a bucket of water in the area - something I've always done not just on Scorpio's.

Dave

-------------------------------------------------
Poor idle, jerk during normal drive, sometimes motor off at idle, problems with start, not any time. Sometimes at cold, sometimes at warm.

Very significant - RPM not stable, the needle was moving slightly at constant speed.

So oscilloscope connected to both signals PIP and SAW and - the SAW had smaller amplitude, ca. 6 V. PIP OK, 12V. Disconnected all connectors, measured the cable. Strange, the SAW line had an unsymmetrical leak. I remember one week before I filled a bit coolant and some was over the ignition module.

I made a 3-wire shielded cable cross-over. Now all OK, both signals are clear. Motor runs well, no any previous problems. Old cable cut off totally.

The "modern" motors have more electronics than mechanics :-(. And cable problems are very known. With a bit measurement and some electric knowledge the problem is not very hard to solve.

Maybe my experience can help a bit in case somebody has similar problems. All petrol machines with EDIS have same control signals. And without clear PIP signal the EECIV didn't start the petrol injectors at all !!! And the shielded cable goes directly from the EDIS to EECIV, without any connectors on the way.

BR

Grzes
------------------------------------------

Title: Re: none starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 13^th, 2016, 9:21pm

update ! hade the EDIS connector off again looks ok still no start don't even know what them two big connectors are below the steering fluid container are but checked them as well all seems fine , took every fuse out the aux box one by one testing engine every time still wont start pulled every relay out and back still wont start, pulled the wire that goes to the aux box off and on again and engine starts instant ! pulled and wiggled all wires and connectors to all of the above and the engine didn't miss a beat ! BUT I couldn't hear the fuel pump kick in then off when it wouldn't start but after I got it going I could hear it for about 1-2 seconds as I turned the ignition on and off trouble is once you have it going you can turn it on and off and it keeps starting until its left a short while , I think its got to be something controlling the pump even though pulling the fuse and relay had no effect ,any ideas ?

Title: Re: none starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 18^th, 2016, 1:05pm

yet another update, had good look in daylight on Saturday , been round and cleaned every plug or socket I could find ! disconnected aux fuse box and after separating the two half's found water in the bottom bit ! dried it all off with hair drier and it all worked fine ! must have started it a dozen times during the rest of the day all fine, got in today (sunday) started first time ! went on 4 mile trip to shops and when I came to come home half hour later FAILED to start !!! >:( off with wire for ten seconds and starts and runs perfect ,no idle probs or any other faults ! what system would need resting /reboot to cause this ? surely if it was wiring prob from EDIS or sensor it would still be there on reboot ? think I need to admit defeat on this and get it plugged into a diagnostic to see what faults are showing ,

Title: Re: none starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 18^th, 2016, 2:48pm

right then think ive narrowed it down ! :D if I pull the ignition lock relay out and then back in it fires up ! is this relay suppose to get warm ? the rest are cool to the touch . could it really be as simple as a faulty relay or is another part of the ignition lock system faulty needing the power to be cut to reset ?

Title: Re: none starting
Post by Tompion on Dec 18^th, 2016, 3:01pm

Any relays that are activated will get warm.
Yes a faulty relay could cause your problems, the normal thing is to swap a suspect one with a less important one of the same type.

If the water in the lower part of the fusebox has come down through the fusebox layers then you may need to strip it down as it may be tracking inside.

If you have a laptop a cheap ELM327 scanner & free forscan software is very good for reading fault codes, however these type of faults don't always produce codes.

Title: Re: none starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 18^th, 2016, 5:39pm

cheers Tompion I didn't know you could get a scanner so cheap ! ive ordered one this afternoon cos I'm going to need it ether way ! I think the water is recent as ive only had the car a few months and I know it was in my mates dry garage for a year before that. ill try another relay in and see what happens

Title: Re: none starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 21^st, 2016, 10:26pm

CONCLUSION ! I've swapped the relay around with the heated windscreen one and had the hair dryer out on the fuse box again just to make sure, and its been OK for two days now ' which is a long time for it ' and ill stick my neck out here and say its sorted ! id like to thank all who helped with their ideas and suggestions cos ive learned a lot about a car with technology I was unfamiliar with ! so after owning a mk4 zephyr since 1990 (the ugly one) (Dagenham dustbin ) it seems fitting that the googly eyed cosworth has become part of the family ! cheers guys

Title: Re: none starting
Post by Simmo on Dec 22^nd, 2016, 6:51am

Good to hear that you appear to have sorted things. IF you think that moisture MIGHT be an issue in the fuse box you could place some small bags of Silica such as These (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Silica-Gel-Pouches-Sachets-Weight/dp/B004XX2W5G/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1482385801&sr=8-2&keywords=silica+gel+bag) in the box. ;)

Title: Re: non starting
Post by Tompion on Dec 22^nd, 2016, 11:46am

Let's hope it's fixed :)

Just looked through the thread & I can't see mention of the battery cover so just checking you do have one? Also make sure water drains away around the fusebox & no leaves etc in the area:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/drainholes.htm

Unless absolutely necessary never work on the fuseboxes in the rain.

Title: Re: non starting
Post by reedyone on Dec 22^nd, 2016, 1:51pm

yep it has a battery cover , ive covered the fuse box with some bubble wrapping but the prob seems to have been the relay . i took the opportunity to wax oil the battery box area as well i also think the fuse box lid hadn't been put on properly causing water to get in once i started to use it, the car had only done 185 miles in 2 years before i got it it had sat in a lock up garage for at least a year of that with a flat battery ,my mate prob knocked it when he put a new batt in when i bought it off him.i a strange way it done good as i now know where lots of stuff is on the car were-as when i got it i was scared to touch out !