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        General >> Problems >> More trouble!! Won't start!
        
(Message started by: Simmo on Nov 3^rd, 2018, 3:49pm)

Title: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Simmo on Nov 3^rd, 2018, 3:49pm

Having partly resolved the radiator/fan issue another issues has raised its ugly head >:(
Yesterday evening I drove five miles to my local, stayed an hour, drove back into town and parked. 10 minutes later I returned to the car which was reluctant to start...most unusual!
Drove home, parked in the garage overnight.
This morning no way would the car start. Checked all the fuses and relays mentioned in Fault Finder. Nothing. Checked plugs, no spark. >:( By now having to jump start)
Disconnected/reconnected battery. No go. Used hand scanner, nothing.
Switched ignition on again and suddenly there was a chattering noise seemingly from the engine compartment. Sounded like a pump, relay or similar. It did this two or three times.
Turned the key to start and fired instantly!!!!!!!!!!!!! as normal and ran perfectly.
Left battery on charge until now, voltage over 12v, turns over readily but will not start and no sound of 'chattering' from the engine compartment or could it have been from behind the dash??.
Any clues anyone? before I ring the scrap yard!!

:( :( :(

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by PJDavis on Nov 3^rd, 2018, 6:02pm

Fuel Pump relay? When you turn the ignition on, do you get a little whine from the fuel-pump in the tank as it builds the pressure up? If so both Pump and relay are ok. If not................possibly relay.

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Nov 3^rd, 2018, 7:00pm

Check the wiring loom to the coil packs - could be the insulation breaking up and causing random shorts.
From memory the loom enters the cam cover from the back of the engine - remove the spark plug cover to check properly.

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Simmo on Nov 3^rd, 2018, 8:32pm

Thank you Peter and Mike.
Mike the fuel cut off loom is new and there is no visible issue with the coil packs. We did check earlier today when we were checking for spark. Relay 17 is the fuel pump relay and I have swapped it with another and sprayed the sockets. No result. A strange thing did occur this evening when I was switching the ignition on and that was the appearance of the cruise control light on the instrument panel along with all the normal lights?? The mystery deepens.

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Snoopy on Nov 4^th, 2018, 7:29am

Check the loom that runs across the bottom of the engine bay under the radiator. That's where you have been working so you might have disturbed something down there. ALSO check the ignition module located under the headlamp. I remember Scorpioman had similar problems after he had work done on the front end.
Good Luck

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Simmo on Nov 4^th, 2018, 8:25am

Thank you Dave. Will do.

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Tompion on Nov 4^th, 2018, 12:22pm

Chances are you'll have spilt some antifreeze whilst changing the rad - if it got on the loom along the front that could be the problem. If it drips down the side of the filler chances are it'll go on the ignition module.

Since you had a split rad no telling where the coolant went.
I usually pour a bucket of water on anywhere there's been a spill.

If you still have any corrosion block spray try that on the loom, if you can ease the tape apart & slide the straw in to get right in - it kept my wiring problems at bay for a while.

Much easier to get the spray now, here on ebay:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/263293111736

Dave

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Simmo on Nov 4^th, 2018, 12:54pm

Hi Dave. When the rad went there was water all over the place for sure. The loom itself is well covered and I've just come back in from another good search/check. I took the large square connector apart on the inner wing and sprayed it with WD but I have to say there was no sign of corrosion. It looked absolutely pristine. The strangest thing is the sudden appearance of the cruise control indicator on the instrument panel. ??? The wiring to the unit is in good condition but presumably it is getting a live feed from somewhere. I have some spray left so I will have a try with that and try and get it into the covered loom.
I have tested the earth screw you spoke about re the fans and that will move freely.
:)

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Nov 4^th, 2018, 2:03pm

Isn't the cruise control actuator near the rad ?
Maybe it has got wet ?
Does the cruise control have a relay which could be removed to disable it to see if that stops the light coming on ?

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Tompion on Nov 4^th, 2018, 2:54pm

On mine the cruise loom branches off the ABS loom & goes back via the drivers side grommet so not in the same bundle of wires as the engine bay loom that goes back via the passenger side grommet but the bundles do run alongside each other on the drivers side below the block connector on the inner wing. Yours may be different with the other type of ABS.

With the block connector the most likely problem is underneath the fixed connector where the wires emerge from the loom.

Dave

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Simmo on Nov 4^th, 2018, 4:30pm

Thanks again Dave. I've sprayed the area liberally ;D with the corrosion spray so I guess will just have to see if that has any effect.

Mike. the book says there is a green relay for the cruise control in the passenger side glove box unit. I can only see a yellow one and as the car is jammed in the garage I can't readily even get to that to remove it. I will have a go if we get the car out. ::)

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Tompion on Nov 4^th, 2018, 4:56pm

I think glovebox relays tend to be like the mystery brown relay in the drivers door - probably not there ::)

No relays at all above my glovebox even though I have cruise.
Only a blue socket - presumably for the headlight washers I don't have.

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Nunnspoet on Nov 5^th, 2018, 10:01am

A long shot:
Sorted!!

Firstly, thank you everyone for your advice Cool.

Right. Having played, and faffed about to the utmost of my pathetic abilities I decided to call out the RAC. the guy checked the fuses and relays in the Bty. side fuse box and discovered that the Relay situated nearest the Bulkhead on the left hand side, as you look from the front of the car, had failed. So he fitted the similar relay from my other Scorpio and hey presto! Everything as should be. Perfect.

I believe it is the Main Power Relay: 12v 70amp and is readily available from Auto Electrical outlets. I purchased 2 straight away.

I believe that what with the Top Rad hose blowing spreading Coolant all over the Engine bay and the Expansion Tank spraying Coolant about (she has had slightly misted up o/s Headlight lens for some time) it is no wonder the electrics had a problem.

Mike Grin Cool

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Simmo on Nov 8^th, 2018, 10:58am

I hope I'm not tempting fate with this post BUT>>>> it appears we have found and cured the fault.
Tompion came up with a list of suggestions amongst which was one relating to the fuel rail. I removed the cap from the valve and on pressing it there was a small release of fuel. Switched ignition on again BUT this time no pressure/fuel from the valve.My mate who had earlier suggested the ignition switch then had me laying down by the rear offside wheel listening for the petrol pump to activate as he turned the ignition switch. First couple of clicks, nothing. Then suddenly I heard the pump start up. He then turned to start position and car fired instantly!! Tried again...dead!!!!!!!!!!!!! Listened again for pump and it started up as did the car. Clue was that Gregg, my mate, had seemingly 'wiggled' the key.

Accessed the ignition switch but there is no access to the 'innards' all that is visible is the end of the switch with five soldered contacts. That portion does not seem easily removed.
Removed the lock barrel and although no clear access there are gaps between the 'innards' and the housing which allowed me to spray contact cleaner into the electric section...I hope ??? Replaced the lock barrel and all seems to be working fine again.
PJD seems to have been close to the problem so I hope this account is of use in the future.
;)

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Tompion on Nov 8^th, 2018, 2:05pm

Mike,

If you do need to replace it I think if you take the indicator stalk off you'll be able to work out how to release the ignition switch clips.

Details on page 3 here & where the ignition switch to loom
multiplug is behind the lower dash:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/manual/steering/SteeringColumn.pdf

Dave

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Simmo on Nov 8^th, 2018, 2:12pm

Thank you Dave. I'm hoping it won't be necessary!! ;D

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Simmo on Nov 10^th, 2018, 12:13pm

I WAS tempting fate!! ???
The car has stood in the garage, untouched, apart from the occasional perfect start up.
Today I went to it, did the same thing......dead as a doornail. No petrol from the valve on checking. No sound of pump running.
The only difference I did notice was that the Cruise Control light was NOT on this time. I know it should not be BUT it has been visible recently.

Wriggled the ignition key..nothing.
??? ??? ???

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by a900one on Nov 10^th, 2018, 12:43pm

Hi Simmo
Have you checked the fuel pump cutoff switch, the contacts may be dirty because of where it is.
Cheers Gerald.

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Simmo on Nov 10^th, 2018, 2:49pm

Just been to the car again...……….started first touch!! ::) ::) ::)

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by PJDavis on Nov 10^th, 2018, 3:37pm

on 11/10/18 at 12:43:30, a900one wrote:

Hi Simmo
Have you checked the fuel pump cutoff switch, the contacts may be dirty because of where it is.
Cheers Gerald.

I concur.

Sorry this is plaguing you so much. You'll get to the root of it eventually.

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Tompion on Nov 10^th, 2018, 5:54pm

Mike,

Looking at your old posts it was Nov 2015 you first had trouble with not starting, fans staying on etc. Almost certainly engine bay loom problems. Probably the recent dose of antifreeze has brought it back.

You said earlier their was no spark, unless you tested the pump at that time it could well have been no spark & no fuel pump which could be down to the ignition switch. Probing the ignition switch terminals when it happens is probably the only way to know.

Cosray reckoned a faulty screened cable from PCM to EDIS could cause problems with the PCM that prevent the car starting for several hours but whether that would include the pump not running I have no idea. It's part of the engine bay loom but wouldn't be too difficult to run a new one alongside.

I'll come and give it a kick in a couple of weeks ::)

Dave

Title: Re: More trouble!! Won't start!
Post by Simmo on Nov 10^th, 2018, 11:49pm

Dave, thank you. Just to add to it I went past the car earlier this evening turned the key and the b....dy thing started like a goodun!!!! It had not been touched for several hours! ::) ::) ::)