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        General >> Problems >> poor engine running at idle
        
(Message started by: fix-and-foxi on Oct 2^nd, 2019, 11:13pm)

Title: poor engine running at idle
Post by fix-and-foxi on Oct 2^nd, 2019, 11:13pm

Hello,
I live in germany and because my native
language is german I apologize for my "simple" english.
Short History:
As I bought 2009 my Scorpio MK2 2.0 16V Estate Ghia DOM 1996, less than 78000km, my first act was to control corrosion within preserving the body with more than 5Ltr. Fluid-Film and one week later once more with 7kg Sanders Wax. So I never had to welt the body -till up this year (a little bit).

Every year its for several days time to service & repairing -I have never owned a car before, that need so much "healing hands" -my hands.
But if all works fine, its a very convenience and roomy vehicle with 2.0to. towing capacity, fast and economical.

In the past the http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk platform helps me more than once to solve electrical and mechanical problems.

Therefore many thanks.

Probems:
It begins three years before, the engine running poor, sometimes less power, than for weeks all ok...
I checked the vacuum tubes -all seems ok, the engine ventilation (replacing a tube), ignition cables -ok, the spark plugs (replaced), cleaned the manifold, and repaired the egine wiring loom (new wires).
The engine runs better - sometimes.
For the last MOT I replaced the MAF and the IAC-valve, also the CAT and the H20S Sensors (both), the AIT.

The engine runs fine with full power and less petrol consumption.
200 km/h - no problem. 2.0to towing - no problem.

But the idle is quite horrifying. The last MOT was only passed by the excellent employee -with a few tricks and after a dozend measures the exhaust test was ok.

Idle problems:
Engine starts every time and by every temperature -no problems.
The first seconds, all is ok. After a moment, a few seconds later, the enging runs like a sack of bolds (only at idle).
After warming the engines runs better at idle -ca. 900 rpm

But if it runs at idle for more than 30-60 sec., mostly -not always-it begans to run like a sack of bolds for a few seconds.
The rpm goes therefore down and up (400-1000 rpm).

Then it regulated ok - but even for 30-60 seconds. It seems, that the EEC try to adjust the mixture right, till the control range ended. Than the idle goes down, the EEC system begins the next adjusting run -and so on.

Now I have my own OBD2 Controller (OBDLINK SX) and I can use it with forscan. (Vehicle Explorer do not works, it needs a RSR232 port, that my notebook haven´t).

The tests prints failures in O2S11:
DTC P1131 lean mixture, and "Heater circuit malfunction"
But when driving the car the O2S1 Sensor Voltage is measured between 0,01 and 0.81 Volts.

But really confuses me the SPARKADV. It changes at idle from 9 to 23 ° up and down. So I have replaced the CAM-Sensor. And then the engine runs poorer than poor. No DTC therefore found.
Back to the old CAM-Sensor -runs like before changing.

If the engine is "equal" under load, the SPARKADV is even equal.

Question: How works the SPARKADV?
Could it be, that the CMP and CKP are essential for the SPARKADV. Forscan do not check CKP (or I do not found it).

I have made some measurings by forscan, Pics and full scans.
These files are stored on my own webspace and if it is helpful and allowed, I can post the links here.

I am very pleased, if somebody can help me.

The next MOT was last month.... and I never have lost a car for frills like this.

Title: Re: poor engine running at idle
Post by Snoopy on Oct 3^rd, 2019, 7:00am

Also have a look at THIS (http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/pooridle.htm) which might be helpful.

Title: Re: poor engine running at idle
Post by Tompion on Oct 3^rd, 2019, 12:31pm

Hi,
Your English is fine, 100% better than my German:)

Since you mentioned transmission wiring in another thread about a manual car is yours manual?

It sounds rather like my car was with wiring problems between the engine bay connector C110 back to the passenger footwell. Presumably yours is LH drive (not that it matters, but there are differences in the cable runs between LH & RH drive).

It's normal for SPARKADV to vary a lot at idle - not sure how much - I'll check mine later.
Several sensors can be disconnected for testing purposes. The engine should run quite happily with the cam sensor disconnected, the same goes for the MAF - I can't tell any difference when driving with either disconnected on my 2.3.

"Engine starts every time and by every temperature -no problems.
The first seconds, all is ok. After a moment, a few seconds later, the enging runs like a sack of bolds (only at idle).
After warming the engines runs better at idle -ca. 900 rpm

But if it runs at idle for more than 30-60 sec., mostly -not always-it begans to run like a sack of bolds for a few seconds.
The rpm goes therefore down and up (400-1000 rpm)."

When mine was doing this it was the EGR because the Electronic Vacuum Regulator (EVR) was partially activated (presumably a short in the loom to the EVR valve).
If I pulled off the vacuum hose on top of the EGR the idle was fine.

Not sure it will be much help but you could look in Forscan to see if the desired RPM is the same as the actual RPM. I recently had a high idle the difference between actual & desired was over 100rpm but there were no codes - it was a faulty idle valve in this case.

The VE software will only work with an Alex Peper lead but you can use a usb adaptor.
Although I still use VE, Forscan is so good, I don't think there's any advantage in paying out for the Alex Peper lead.

Hopefully not the engine bay loom in your case :(

Title: Re: poor engine running at idle
Post by Simmo on Oct 3^rd, 2019, 5:14pm

"Hopefully not the engine bay loom in your case "
There speaks a man who has just spent weeks fitting my car out with a new loom!!!! ;D ;D

Title: Re: poor engine running at idle
Post by Pegasus on Oct 3^rd, 2019, 5:35pm

"I don't think it's worth paying out for an Alex Pepper lead" - I don't think they're available anymore. He sold out after accident/ill health and they have discontinued it.

Google search lists some v good software out there provided you have the correct lead/adaptor. I'm thinking of trying 1 out with the AP lead I have.

Title: Re: poor engine running at idle
Post by Tompion on Oct 3^rd, 2019, 7:16pm

Paul,

I have a really cheap Bluetooth ELM327 that came from China, it works faultlessly with the free Forscan software.
So quick, reads ABS, Security, PATS & engine codes as soon as you connect - no faffing around for ABS - just does it. You can clear all codes.
You can set up live data/graphs much the same as VE.

Dave

Title: Re: poor engine running at idle
Post by Tompion on Oct 3^rd, 2019, 9:18pm

I checked the advance SPARKADV on mine using Forscan, it fluctuated all the time, the lowest I saw at idle with a cold engine was 13 the highest 26 so I don't think there is a problem with regard your readings.

I think the only crank output in Forscan is PIP which appeared to be a simple on/off but I didn't get to check it in oscilloscope mode as my laptop battery died at that moment ::)

Title: Re: poor engine running at idle
Post by fix-and-foxi on Oct 3^rd, 2019, 9:48pm

To Snoopy:
I have read these Site x-times. Its a great site.

Maybe there is the malfunction descripted, but I have not understand the correct procedere for testing.
Therefore I try to make a plan of action.

To Tompion:
Since you mentioned transmission wiring in another thread about a manual car is yours manual?
My is Manual 5gear (MT-75?)
The loom was broken and some wires are connected together.
But it runs (bad). I forgot to attach the plug as I replaced the wires. It runs as a sack of bolts. After connecting the plug right it was running right, but not perfect at idle. This is only my experience -because the car has a lot of electric-engine problems, the reconnecting maybe not causal.

The engine should run quite happily with the cam sensor disconnected, the same goes for the MAF - I can't tell any difference when driving with either disconnected on my 2.3.
With a new CAM (CMP) sensor it runs absolut badly and dies after seconds at idle. Disconnected CMP Sensor I will still test.

EGR: If I disconnected the vacuum tube above the EGR (by closing the tube), nothing changes. Disconnected the rubber tubes by the exhaust manifold have also no effect to idle.

...desired RPM is the same as the actual RPM
It regulated ok - but even for 30-60 seconds

Hopefully not the engine bay loom in your case
You means the wiring loom between the PCM (passenger side indoor) and the great plug (engine bay) witch is connected to the engine wiring loom?
Oh-man what a wonderful vision. I spend nearly two weeks to replace all wires at the engine-wiring-loom.

--
Now I have the Scorpio on my service lift (its a mobile lift and it needs absolut accurate positioning (car and lift), so its very timeconsuming to use the lift).
I think to replace the CKP Sensor, but I am afraid that the engine works as bad as I replace the CMP-Sensor.

Truly, I need an action plan.

Title: Re: poor engine running at idle
Post by Tompion on Oct 3^rd, 2019, 11:07pm

on 10/03/19 at 21:48:45, fix-and-foxi wrote:

Hopefully not the engine bay loom in your case
You means the wiring loom between the PCM (passenger side indoor) and the great plug (engine bay) witch is connected to the engine wiring loom?
Oh-man what a wonderful vision. I spend nearly two weeks to replace all wires at the engine-wiring-loom.

There's been a LHD (Auto) loom on ebay for a very long time. Here's one of the pictures.

http://i.imgur.com/3QkQxnA.jpg

I replaced all wires engine side - left of the big grommet at the top of the picture.
When I say all I don't include the ABS - that's a separate loom on RHD.

Did you replace the EDIS wires - they were in poor condition on mine. The cooling fan wires were very bad (fans coming on with the engine off), whether they were shorting with engine sensors I can't say but quite likely.

On mine (RHD) the big grommet is the other side of the car so wiring to the fan relay, large autobox plug & large engine plug are about 2 meters longer so some problems like fans staying on may not be so common on LHD.

Title: Re: poor engine running at idle
Post by PJDavis on Oct 4^th, 2019, 12:57am

All above is very good. All 5 star bosses are totally correct with their advice. I'd still be thinking MAF and fuel shut-off loom. It doesn't matter if you have replaced the MAF with a new one, or second-hand one, the car still needs to be driven out on the road to 'learn' your driving. I replaced my MAF with a new Ford item and the car ran like a bag of bolts for 30 miles before it settled-down, and I had stopped a few times previously on runs thinking it was still bad until I was told by a service manager that the car needed to learn the new MAF. The shut-off-loom is very tricky. I have repaired 'properly' using 'wet' joints a top shut-off-loom, and everything was fine, but failed again fo no real reason. once I renewed the loom, with a brand-new item, all was fine, including gearbox changes. The Scorpio is a very strange car.

Title: Re: poor engine running at idle
Post by fix-and-foxi on Oct 4^th, 2019, 10:00pm

Hi,

where/how can I post some pics and files (forscan tests)?

I would like to post selected screenshots from forscan oscilloscope in overview and maybe selected cuttings.
Also I have the complete files (.fsl) to run it in forscan.

I have stored it at my own webspace, so I can post the links here.

To Tompion:
"Did you replace the EDIS wires"
What means EDIS?

The shown wiring loom costs nearly 700 EUR.
If that will be the last option, it would be the end of my Scorpio.
I´m very annoyed about the price development by the manufacturers (equal the brand) for there oldies - but this is another topic.

In the past I have replace the wires from the beginning to the "great" plugs in the engine bay near the passenger side. Its the wiring loom to the engine sensors and actuaters and the sparks/ignition coil.

Helpful for me would a wiring diagramm, where I can assign and measure the wires seperately from the PCM plug (indoor footwell) to the end (sensors/actuaters ...)

Also I am looking for a schematic circuit diagramm, because some wires are hidden intertwined in the looms (as I remember).

Today I have welded a little bit (already), tomorrow I have to check the handbreaksystem (left rear brake calliper do not work 100%). But mechanicals or body work is no problem.

Title: Re: poor engine running at idle
Post by Tompion on Oct 5^th, 2019, 12:14am

The picture was just to give an idea of what I replaced, being an Auto loom not right for you. It was over 900EUR when I first saw it.

EDIS = Electronic Distributorless Ignition System, referred to as DIS on some of the Scorpio pages.
Some later models have it built into the PCM. Usually an external EDIS is located on the right wing behind the headlight under the coolant header tank. It can be difficult to see with the header tank in place. The retaining clip on the plug has a nasty habit of breaking off so make sure the plug is tight.

PDF's of the diagrams are here:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.pl?board=admin;action=display;num=1268901956

You may find some info here but this is the 2.3 manual with the EDIS in the PCM:
http://www.fordscorpio.co.uk/23looms.htm

There doesn't appear to be a similar page for the 2.0l manual but if you click on the button on the left the auto version may be useful.

You can put a link to your files if you want.
There's nowhere on the Scorpio site to store pictures you have to host them somewhere & post a link. I used to use photobucket but changed to imgur once they started charging.

If you click on quote on my previous post you'll see how I added the picture with a link to imgur - pictures should be no bigger than 640X480 pixels

Title: Re: poor engine running at idle
Post by fix-and-foxi on Oct 15^th, 2019, 10:08pm

Hello,

sorry for the late feedback -to much todo. Many thanks for the links,the files are very helpful.
I have changed the CAM and CPK Sensors, the engine runs better at idle, but the basic problem seems not solved.
So I checked alle the vacuum-tubes again and again...nothing works wrong, no leaks at the inlet manifold.

At the exhaust manifold its seemed to be a little bit leaking at the EGR-Metal-Tube -but, because that disconnecting the EGR-rubber-tubes do not changed the engine running at idle significantely, I do not noticed this as important.

But, if the engine runs too lean at idle although the SHRTFT reaches the maximum, there I thought it could not be a faulty HO2S-Sensor basicly.

It has to be somewhere a leak to the inlet system.

Not my idea, I bought a powerful e-cigarette and 100% glycerin fluid (mixed up myself to 85% glycerin with destillated water by 15%).
I disconnect the MAF, connect one side of a vinyl glove to the suction hose, one finger to long fishtank tube and blow the fog of the e´cigarette into the complete inlet manifold and vacuum compenents.

Ha!

It smoked out to the idle speed control valve (ventilation cap-ok) at first.
Seconds later it leaks out to the underside of the vacuum caddy as a part of the EGR-Valve.
I have never thought that there could be a leak to the underside, because if I disconnected the vacuum tube from the EGR-Valve, the vacuum caddy seems tight.

But this "tubeless" check only tests the upperside of the vacuum caddy and it is said that if it is faulty, exhaust gas are coming out.
The fog check tested the inlet side of the EGR too.

I sprayed some gas to the leak and the engine runs smoothly.

Now I searching for a new/old EGR-Valve, but I think about at first to tighten the EGR Valve to the inlet tube.
If it works, a new EGR Valve could be worth for my Scorpio.

Title: Re: poor engine running at idle
Post by Tompion on Oct 16^th, 2019, 1:58am

Some people have the EGR permanently blanked off.
Whether or not that's a good idea I won't comment but there's no harm in trying that first to see if the idle improves.

Title: Re: poor engine running at idle
Post by fix-and-foxi on Nov 4^th, 2019, 6:03pm

Hi,

My scorpio has passed the MOT today without problems, exemplarily.
In germany the MOT-period goes about 2 years, how long is it in England?

And by the way. As I remember my first MOT (1985) costs less than 30.00 DM. Nearly 35 years later I payed 126.60 EUR (ca. 256 DM).
Interesting: nearly 8.3% Inflation/year
loss of purchasing power: -93,36 %
(calculated by finanzen-rechner-dot-de)

But the EURO is monetary stable :-X

Many thanks for the very helpful information by all members of this forum -its great!