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Title: Thieving T@ats Post by bertie on Oct 15th, 2006, 9:17am http://www.mailonsunday.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=410449&in_page_id=1770&ico=Homepage&icl=TabModule&icc=NEWS&ct=5 makes my blood boil |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Spannerdemon on Oct 15th, 2006, 9:29am I can see a day coming in the very near future when the people of this country are going to take this government down. Amazing that all this money can be spent on traffic enforcement, but that we can't look after our sick and elderly. We can ignore crime and criminals but we can't smoke in a pub. We can't choose NOT to have a TV licence, and every day we are checked, double checked, and spied on by more CCTV cameras than any other country in the world. I reckon there's a whole heap of trouble just around the next pass hombres!!! :( |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Kjetil S on Oct 15th, 2006, 11:02am Although we don't have any proof, they use just about the same tactics in Norway. I know of one camera placed exactly where a dual lane road becomes a single lane road, and one neatly placed a couple of meters behind a HUGE sign. First one catches everyone being a little late in changing lanes, second one catches just about everyone who isn't aware. (I have a speedcam warning system in my car, so usually no problems) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by jonnycab on Oct 16th, 2006, 12:04am on 10/15/06 at 09:29:50, Spannerdemon wrote:
I agree Spanners with everything you say....especially the bit about the elderly :) Everyone moans about how much tax we pay & how honest people are persecuted when they do something wrong...i.e...caught speeding or not paying TV licence. But the elderly really do have the raw deal. ??? They've been there, done it & got the T-shirt. They've contributed to this country no end....& it wouldn't be like it is now if it weren't for them. So a little respect wouldn't go amiss. The government are like chavs...they shout "respect", but don't really have any. >:( Successive governments have always ignored the plights of the elderly, because they have no real contribution to society. "They used to make us rich, but not anymore" one gov minister says. "They're no use anymore...lets just wait for them to die & then we will tax their inheritance", another fat, bloated, ruddy faced MP replies. >:( You contribute so much to the economy of this country when you are young, but when you are old, you have your self respect & pride taken from you, & made to live on a pension that a paper boy wouldn't work for >:( Reminds me of a little rhyme ...The forgotton war hero won't get his due.....for Queen & country have deserted you ??? |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by mr._floppy on Oct 16th, 2006, 12:13am Boy oh Boy, there's one thing that sure infuriates the righteous , and that's being caught fair and square breaking the law. If you bleat about |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by mr._floppy on Oct 16th, 2006, 12:28am Sorry pressed the wrong button. ........the governments system then the solution is quite simple......... Don't speed, and you won't need to put money into Labour's coffers . |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Baz on Oct 16th, 2006, 12:39am Floppy it isn't about being caught fair and square.... it is about the ones who never get caught because the authorities are too bothered about catching speeding motorists than locking up people who prey on the elderly and vulnerable. Only today yet another bloke is killed in a random attack by young thugs. The doo gooders can hide their heads in the sand all they want but what Bertie and spanner say is right; the normal everyday people of this country will not put up with this forever, something has to give. If the Police think they can continue to screw evey last penny out of motorists like they are doing ( and I am not being righteous here, I don't speed, I don't drink and I have never run anyone over and killed them and only got 2 years in prison either!) then they are going to have to come out of the coffee shop and smell the fresh air. The head of the army is showing the government up for the lies it pushed out about Iraq, Gordon Brown has about as much chance of being a succesful Primeminister as Neil Kinnock and all the time, Smiling Tony just continues to bowl along as though Labour have done nothing but good since they came to power. I guess if you count playing Robin Hood and taking all the hard earned money off the workers and giving it to the chavs and scum that want to lie round in bed all day and then go robbing at night then they have certainly acheived something. Taxed to death by the Labour party........ a fitting end to the working man! |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by LiverpaulH on Oct 16th, 2006, 11:54am Bertie, Spanner, Johnny and Baz are spot on. At the end of the day if I speed and get caught so be it, but its the punishment and crime aspect or lack of it thats the problem. Middle class briton are the easy targets so get hit hardest, the local theiving pikey gets away with theft and damage and the rest because they play the system. It stinks and the government has really messed its priorities up. If my driving at 5mph above a limit was a more henious crime that beating a pensioner up for money i'd understand, but it isn't and never will be. Its too late now, simple as that. Paul |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 16th, 2006, 11:57am speed cameras are there just to make money? i dont think thats news falling on everyones ears, and i dont think it matters what government is in power, they will all collect revenue from them. there's lots of problems with speed cameras, i.e. they cause accidents, and they do not stop bad/dangerous driving i.e. someone could be speeding and tailgating, as they approach a camera, slow down, then speed up and tailgate again. the only way to quickly reduce the diabolical driving in this country is to have more traffic police, but, theres a problem there, a traffic copper doesnt always issue fines, and you have to pay them wages, but the result is safer roads, which is better for everyone, well, except the government, any government, who, on the whole arent too interested in road safety, revenue yes, they're very quick to send out a bill for road tax which is purely financial, but do we get reminders about MOT's?. there is also a public problem with traffic cops; public attitude, the fringe of which has been displayed earlier in this topic, and the time old comment of 'they should be catching real criminals' springs to mind, well think about that, we all use the roads, need too, our spouses do, for some of us our kids do. now, for an example, take mr. beemer driver, you all know him, he hasnt had the time to go to the garage for the bmw recall for all the indicators on his car failing, he overtakes you at speed on a blind bend and hits an oncoming car, basically a good example of dangerous driving. the occupant of the other car is hospitalised, some internal injuries, but will be ok, eventually. it turns out the beemer drivers MOT expired a week ago, like a lot of people he's been working hard, couldnt get booked in at the garage until tomorrow, but needed the car for a meeting, a usual life scenario that unfortunately ended up in an accident injuring someone. is he any less of a criminal than a 18 year old kid that snatches a ladies handbag? personally i think not. |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 16th, 2006, 2:57pm Cant see anything wrong with speed cameras, if you speed then why not pay the fine. Why should it have to be fair? Are we being fair speeding?? They are only out to make money the same as everyone else, if we didnt speed they would have to do something else to get it.. |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by dh_dove on Oct 16th, 2006, 5:35pm Dear All Whilst speed cameras may have been seen as a valuable road safety measure to begin with I think that what we have now is a load of self-perpetuating beaurocracies (ie "speed camera partnerships"), presumably on good money, who need to prosecute more and more people to pay their wages and pensions and feed the Government's increasing demands for cash from the motorist (#1 Criminal in the UK). You must have noticed how Police road patrols almost vanished after the introduction of cameras - trained officers are expensive and can exercise judgement, cameras are cheap, never sleep and cost little by comparison. BUT What about the joyrider, thief, drunk, uninsured drivers? Lack of Police patrols means these Criminals get away time and time again. So, are speed cameras addressing crime on the roads, I think not!!!!!!!!!!! On a lighter note DO CHECK OUT www.speedcam.co.uk - you'll love it I guarantee. Best Wishes DH Dove |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 16th, 2006, 5:38pm They are obviously catching people speeding efficiently enough though and they dont prosecute innocent motorists :) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by dh_dove on Oct 16th, 2006, 5:43pm 32 in a 30 limit................? Whilst the scrote that stole your Scorpio gets away due to lack of Police Patrols? Sorry Highlander I can't sign up to that ??? DH Dove |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by mr._floppy on Oct 16th, 2006, 5:46pm Why is the Government in a tizzy over the prison population ? They wring their hands and despair that within Europe we have more folk in jail than any other country ( except Turkey, who presumably have the right idea ). The implication is simple enough even for politicians to comprehend , maybe we have lots more Criminal scumbags per head of population than any other Country !!! Some Number crunching ( as they say ) USA population 295million Prison Population 1.02 Million ( .345%) England&Wales population 53.4Million Prison Population 80 000 ( .149%) ( rough figures) We've a long way to go to match our Atlantic chums, lets start building more jails and start jailing more scumbags with longer sentences. :-* |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 16th, 2006, 6:03pm 32 in a 30 is speeding which is breaking the law, although they usually dont prosecute till you do 10% + 2 mph due to possible calibration error. I understand what everyone is saying but speeding is speeding and why not make money out of it by hitting people (WHO ARE BREAKING THE LAW) with fines and points by using cameras which are paying for themselves and making money for the people who own them.. IF we get to the stage when we can regularly catch burglars, muggers, rapists, murderers etc (The so called real criminals) with cameras will everyone complain then?? |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 16th, 2006, 6:32pm highlander, its not that 'black and white'....... firstly is it ethical for a government (doesnt matter which one, they would all do it) to have a campaign placing speed cameras everywhere and inform the populus that its on the grounds of safety, even though various motoring organisations and countless individual studies have proven that in a lot of cases they actually cause accidents? and then to claim that the revenue goes back into roads, road safety campaigns etc? then the knock on effect; the majority of areas have put up cameras, then reduced the amount of traffic cops, which increases bad driving as there's less traffic divisions to monitor roads, therefore the roads are less safe. this has lead to an increase of scroats 'taking a chance' with no insurance, false plates (for the cameras) etc i.e. a scroat hits your car, speeds off, you get his reg number, comes back as no trace, wheres a copper when you need one? punishment should fit the crime; is being given 3 points on your licence for doing 75 in a 70 justifiable? if a traffic cop caught you for the same, unless you have similar offences, he or she will probably tell you off, embarass you, hold you up on your journey and send you on your way with your tail between your legs, but more importantly it will cause you to use your mirrors more often, which is safer for everyone. fairness; lets say you get caught by a camera doing 74/75 in a 70, thats 60 quid please and have 3 points on your licence, but, this cant be right, you've never broken the limit, you go to court to challenge it, well, the camera was calibrated the very morning you got flashed, but you cant work it out, your speedo deffo said 68/70, well remember the threads a couple of weeks back about speedo inaccuracy? will the court be interested? nope. i doubt whether anyone on here is against cameras in sensible locations i.e. on a busy road near a school etc but their prolific use has gone beyond a joke... |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 16th, 2006, 6:41pm '32 in a 30 is speeding which is breaking the law, although they usually dont prosecute till you do 10% + 2 mph due to possible calibration error.' they're changing the attitude with that highlander; a few months back the motorcyclenews reported evidence that a lot of authorities are reducing the conviction speed. |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by dh_dove on Oct 16th, 2006, 6:48pm [quote author=Highlander link=board=news;num=1160896650;start=0#14 date=10/16/06 at 18:03:35]32 in a 30 is speeding which is breaking the law, although they usually dont prosecute till you do 10% + 2 mph due to possible calibration error. Sorry Highlander, those days have gone. NB THATS 35MPH!!!!!!!!! Cameras flash and prosecute you over the speed limit. BTW How many cameras are there in The Highlands? :) DH Dove |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 16th, 2006, 7:45pm Oh we have a few ;) Ok well even if they prosecute at one MPH over the limit, its still over the limit... and as our Scorp speedos are probably showing 10% more than we are actually doing we are speeding and we KNOW we are speeding. Leave the nice camera people alone!! :) They only catch the guilty PS, the camera near me in a 40 limit doesent go off till you hit 65 ;) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Baz on Oct 16th, 2006, 7:59pm But wait till they re calibrate it and the next time you pass it at 64 it will flash you!! ;D This government is trying to keep the prison population down by coming up with all sorts of gimics.... electronic tags, fixed penalty notices for anti social behaviour,, ASBO's (commonly known as A Scumbags Badge of 'Onour) maybe when they start getting tickets for rape, mugging and assault people will realise what a bloody state this country is really in. Why they can't use the prisoners as forced labour to build new prisons god only knows we don't need Polish workers we got plenty of free labour right under our noses.... better to make the thieving scum work for it rather than my taxes going to pay for them to laze around all day watching telly and playing pool IMO |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 16th, 2006, 8:06pm another point, how serious is speeding? is it a major problem? |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by jonnycab on Oct 17th, 2006, 1:59am In a built up area during the day then common sense & judgement should tell you that 30mph is the safest maximum speed. But at night time there are less hazards, so 40mph may seem a like safe speed. The police know this & will often let you off with a 'tut tut' & a (naughty boy) waggle of the finger at 3 o'clock in the morning. Speed cameras don't discriminate between night & day >:( But the fact remains that speed does kill & there are plenty of statistics to prove it. A couple of years ago I was en-route to Romford on the A12 (London bound carriageway) in the early hours. As you approach the traffic lights at Harold Wood there is a camera about 1/4 mile before the lights. This camera is always loaded & always works. The speed limit is 50mph & I was doing 50mph. A car over took me doing about 60mph about 1/2 mile from the camera. When he went through the camera (I was 500 yards behind him) it went off. "Ha...serves you right sucker" I thought. Next thing I know I felt my car move sideways as though being blown by a cross wind, & a white Renault 5 GT Turbo (think that what is was, bit of a blur) shot passed me like I was standing still. I would estimate his speed at between 120 & 130mph. He didn't slow down at all for the camera & guess what.....the camera didn't trigger ???...he then proceeded to shoot the lights & the camera on them didn't trigger either ??? So obviously these cameras will only get you up to a certain speed...anything higher & you are too quick for the camera. So the really dangerous arseholes on the road can still get away with it >:( P.S. About an hour later I heard from another cabbie to avoid the A12 at the Whalebone Lane junction as it was shut. Police, ambulances & fire engines were on the scene. The crash barriers & traffic lights had been taken out by a small white car which had literally disintigrated & was on its roof in the middle of the junction. He said it looked like a Renault 5...but hard to tell really. ??? Heard about a week later that both driver & passenger had died. But luckily no other cars involved. I feel for the families & the passenger.....but as for the driver.....he can rot in hell. >:( I have no sympathy for these idiots >:( |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 17th, 2006, 11:19am 'So obviously these cameras will only get you up to a certain speed...anything higher & you are too quick for the camera. So the really dangerous arseholes on the road can still get away with it' jonny, this theory was tested by i think top gear, it turned out to be urban myth, the speed needed to beat the camera was about 188mph...... |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by jonnycab on Oct 17th, 2006, 11:48am I'm not telling porkies taliban. ::) The camera was obviously working as another car had just triggered it. So why didn't the Renault trigger it? ??? |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 17th, 2006, 12:25pm Well in a quote from the same website as the original post "Home Office figures show that last year there were 7,104 traffic officers in Britain compared to 8,084 in 1996" Which is not as big a drop as everyone seems to think.. It does say that LONDON is a major problem due to lower numbers of traffic police and people thinking they can get away with dangerous/illegal driving. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=410018&in_page_id=1770 |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 17th, 2006, 12:47pm that is a hell of a big drop highlander, especially as there were probably not enough anyway, then add the increase of cars on the road over a 10 year period. i know full well what a problem london is lol does the report state the areas that traffic divisions have been reduced? |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 17th, 2006, 12:55pm jonny, im not saying you're telling prkies, i honestly dont know why the renault didnt trigger it, all i can remember about the experiment with a camera is that it was done in daylight, straight bit of track, no obstructions etc. i do know of a couple of people currently on bans for being caught by speed cameras, they were doing 120+ the traffic light camera is a different matter, they seem to vary, theres a few on my bus routes, one of which everyone seems to know as it will flash as soon as the lights start to change. a couple of the others seem to give at least 2 seconds of red before flashing though... |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 17th, 2006, 2:16pm Admittedly its a drop but can just under 1000 traffic officers do the work of 6000? plus speed cameras? i think not. Big brother is watching :) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 17th, 2006, 8:21pm but 6000 traffic cameras cannot do the work of 1 traffic copper let alone a 1000..... highlander, you're not gordon brown by any chance are you? ::) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 17th, 2006, 10:07pm But how many man hours do these things save and how much more efficient are they.. I realise a speed camera cant direct traffic or put cones out or do any of their other duties etc but from a speed trap point of view they must be saving hundreds of very expensive man hours that the traffic guys used to do and be catching many many more people speeding. New cameras coming out are going to catch us up to a mile away too :( Gordon who?? :) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 17th, 2006, 10:26pm i dont think you can compare the 2 that easily if at all, their jobs are totally different. if you were to get a traffic cop to write down all the jobs they did in a day, call outs, accidents, stolen cars etc etc i would think speeding would be a small percentage. also a traffic cop is mobile, a speed camera is not, so, if for example there is the instant need to close a lane on a busy dual carriageway but the area is dangerous because idiots are going to fast for the road condition, the sight of a white cap, hi vis jacket and laser gun in hand makes everyone slow down, prevention is better than cure. |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Baz on Oct 17th, 2006, 11:11pm hmmm white hat..... laser gun....... pity about the hi-viz jacket! http://www.legionxxiv.org/stmardigraslarg/stcophandsup.jpg |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 17th, 2006, 11:36pm pmsl |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 18th, 2006, 12:19pm I think we are arguing two different points here.. I dont for one second think a speed camera is some robotic traffic cop that cant do a traffic cops job. All i'm saying is that if you count up how many hours these things work, how many people they catch speeding etc then they are far more efficient than a traffic officer with a hand held radar.. They DO slow people down the same as a traffic cop in a high vis jacket, just watch the break lights when people pas them :) Ideally they would have been an addition to the traffic police but now the number of officers is reducing because they cameras are doing this part of their job. I'd love to see more officers out there but i'm more than happy with the ever increasing number of speed cameras even if they are just making money :) Number recognition is here now, only in a small way but one day you wont be able to move without them knowing if the cars legal or not ;) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by TiberiuS on Oct 18th, 2006, 12:35pm Highlander, fair point mate but I think we're all talking at cross purposes :) Speed cameras aren't put in areas to enforce road safety, surveys are done and cameras put in place where drivers regularly go over the limit regardless of location, accident record etc. I drive through Brentwood now and then, normally very early or late, no other cars in sight. Coming off the A12 at 7am on a Sunday, the road to Brentwood town centre is a 40mph, halfway it goes to a 30, nice clear road, no cars in sight. Hidden just behind the 30 sign is a camera van. Now that gets me narked. The same on the Ingrave road back torwards Brentwood, 30 goes into a 60, favourite place for speed camera vans is sheltered by the trees just before the 60 sign, they know people see the sign and speed up, bang, gotcha... Down further near Orsett there's a sign about the number of serious injuries/fatalities on the road in the past year (23 I think, people turning out of the pub/side roads), 'road accident prevention site', new 50mph limit in place of the 60. Speed cameras? No, because not enough people go far enough over the limit to make it profitable. Same story everywhere else. Accidents happen through bad driving, not only speeding, cameras are indiscriminate about who they catch. The real people who cause carnage on the roads are the moronic tailgaters, queue jumpers, overtakers who get so over confident and one day go too far... Same with traffic wardens, makes me want to spit blood. I try hard to keep my licence clean but these b@st@rds are always out to catch people unawares... Regards Bruce :) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 18th, 2006, 1:06pm also, in a lot of areas where speed cameras have been put in place surveys have showed that they increase the accident rate, so, all in all, the revenue from them is lied about, and they often cause accidents. the new breed of camera you mentioned earlier is a particular nasty bit of work; one camera constantly records licence plates, a couple of miles down the road another does the same, from this the time taken to travel the distance is worked, and thus the speed, pure nazi evil. so, you travel down a dual carriageway within speed limit, you pass the first camera, no probs, you're not speeding, then, in front of you, mr mondeo salesman makes some dangerous manouvres, for your own safety you overtake him, putting him where you want him, in your rear view mirror, but to do so you broken the speed limit by 4 or 5 mph for 5 seconds. you pass the second camera, done, banged to rights, we'll take your licence and put 3 points on it and fine you, why? you drove safely on a stretch of dual carriageway with no junctions and took safe evasive action using your indicators and mirrors throughout the manouvre. but hey, thats fair, you know cameras only catch the guilty.... |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 18th, 2006, 2:45pm Surely its ok to use any legal method to catch people speeding?? Yes hiding behind a tree is sneaky but is it fair to speed and put lives at risk? There seems to be a mentality with us that speeding and getting caught for it is a game and the other side are bending the rules to win and its just not fair.. Cameras dont cause accidents, people do that, careless drivers, speeding drivers, dangerous drivers it always annoys me when i hear about a "Killer road", its only a killer road because of the people on it! I had a good one at the weekend, some rep type in a skoda undertook me and gave me all sorts of rude gestures when i blew the horn at him. Two miles down the road and the traffic comes to a halt because of traffic lights with my friend parked right in front of me :) He never opened the door when i went up to him but he went a lovely colour :) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 18th, 2006, 2:53pm pmsl, i knew it wouldnt be long before you replied. 'Cameras dont cause accidents, people do that, careless drivers, speeding drivers, dangerous drivers it always annoys me when i hear about a "Killer road", its only a killer road because of the people on it!' theres a lot of truth in that, but all drivers are taught when they train for their test, but a lot then go on to drive diabolically, so, is the answer speed cameras (the rear end accidents wouldnt happen if the cameras werent there) or traffic police to kerb bad driving? just out of interest, why did the skoda undertake you? |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by mr._floppy on Oct 18th, 2006, 3:54pm Unfair comment about Traffic Wardens, trying to earn an honest bob that's all they're doing. Do you get spat at, thumped or verbally abused when you're trying to do your job ? The driver is the one who's breaking the law, they are enforcing the rules, that's all. As for taking pleasure in booking someone , well why shouldn't they ? perk of the job I'd say, considering the unreasonable a***wipes they have to deal with. |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 18th, 2006, 4:04pm actual police traffic wardens are fine, they're paid to keep the traffic moving, issuing tickets is a last resort, its the private company ones hired by councils that are a problem (not all obviously), they problem stems from the top, its a private business interested in revenue, whereas the police traffic warden system is not, its a public service... |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by TiberiuS on Oct 18th, 2006, 7:53pm on 10/18/06 at 15:54:05, mr._floppy wrote:
Not sure what area you live in mate but they behave like little Hitlers around here, can't say any of them are fair, they get a uniform and think they're elevated above the rest of civilization; rules are there to be broken and so on. That wasn't my original point anyway, just seems that the driver is an easy target, forget all the problems with law and order, if you stop on a single yellow or do 34 in a 30 then God help you... Had one warden in the local town used to go down one particular road and ticket random cars parked in front of a row of shops, no yellow line there either. Happened to a friend of mine a few months back, parked there one morning and got a ticket for no reason, when she showed it to me it was void, one number missing from the reg. A few other people complained about the same thing and all of a sudden it stopped. Conflict of interest going on there I reckon. And I'm not running the Police down, I'm not the plod's biggest fan but they've got a hard enough job to do as it is without being expected to go on traffic patrol for the benefit of local Councils. Bruce. |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 18th, 2006, 7:37pm tiberius there's a difference between traffic wardens and parking attendants, the latter being the dubious lot that work for private companies hired by councils... |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Penguin on Oct 18th, 2006, 9:37pm Speed cameras are a revenue raising on roads where the speed limits are inappropriately low. This is despicable practice and it should be stopped, although since it's perfectly legal to have a machine on the dahsboard that tells you where they are, they are also not particularly effective against me. What concerns me, however, is the fact that a lot of speed limits are innapropriately low - because I find this very dangerous. I drive a lot across London in the course of my work, and most of the journeys are to places that I have never been to before and so I don't know the roads. The problem with all the very low blanket speed limits is that because they are an incitement to be ignored, I won't know on a road that says "30" whether or not it is actually safe to do 50 or if, just around the bend, is a point where one has to slow to 20. So the speed limit doesn't tell me anything about the dangerousness of the road, only how anti-car the local politicians are in that area. But I need to know how dangerous the road is and so does everybody else who hasn't been there before... Penguin |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by bertie on Oct 18th, 2006, 10:17pm on 10/18/06 at 14:53:45, taliban wrote:
hmmm 3 possible answers
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 18th, 2006, 10:44pm No, I was in a line of traffic overtaking a lorry on dual carriageway, as was Skoda man behind me but because I wasnt tailgating the guy in front he reckoned he could get alongside and into the space in front of me before he hit the lorry, which he did but only just! Penguin! Speed limits arent to tell you how fast you can go! nor are they "inciting you to break them"! They are there for safety, if you need to know how fast you can go round the corner you need to take up rallying and get a navigator! You made that sound like speed limits are just an inconvenience for you and they are not made too low solely to gain revenue from cameras! I just hope you arent driving around when my kids are out. As for speed limits telling you "How dangerous the road is" see previous post! |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 18th, 2006, 11:59pm 'No, I was in a line of traffic overtaking a lorry on dual carriageway, as was Skoda man behind me but because I wasnt tailgating the guy in front he reckoned he could get alongside and into the space in front of me before he hit the lorry, which he did but only just!' dangerous driving on his part then. there are problems with speed limits, but there always will be as peoples driving ability varies. in some instances i agree with 20mph limit, but in other areas a 30 limit could or should be a 40 limit. i think some of the problem is limits were set for the vehicles of the time i.e. cross ply tyres (remember them lol), drum brakes, poor lights and even double de clutch (i must stress that i dont remember this, i have only been told about it)..... |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 19th, 2006, 1:51am "Research identified that over 70% of drivers in one study admitted to speeding and in other studies (Webster & Wells) the figure was 85%. Drivers still distinguish between 'ordinary, safe speeding drivers' and 'dangerous speeding drivers'. By many, speed is almost approved of - people can handle it, it's often necessary and many enjoy it - driving at 40mph in a 30mph zone was seen in one study as more acceptable than dropping litter " http://www.thinkroadsafety.gov.uk/campaigns/slowdown/download/2005tv.mpg Theres the reason behind the speed limits! |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by LiverpaulH on Oct 19th, 2006, 9:37am I have to agree with penguin here, speed limits take absolutely no account of road conditions, weather conditions, time of day, approximity to schools and the amount of traffic. A 30mph limit outside a school is too high when the kids are around and you can bet your bottom dollar Mr Righteous micra driver who has never broken a speed limit in his life will do 30mph past the school with as much due care and attention as he shows when doing exactly the same speed in the middle lane of the motorway or on the D restricted A road. Speed does not kill. Inappropriate speed can kill. We have a perfect example of the speed camera problems near my work. A perfectly good 40mph dual carriageway with a roundabout at one end and traffic lights at the other with no other roads joining had a set of cameras put on it. Two weeks later the limit is dropped to 30mph. I assume you'd be happy with that highlander? It just really annoys me, they are revenue raising, pure and simple its got sod all to do with road safety. More police is the answer, cameras cause problems and accidents, look at the one constabulary without them, durham which happens to have an improvement in its accident stats...whereas those with proliferations of scameras find their stats worsening! Paul |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 19th, 2006, 10:57am Ok, once again ... If people dont break the speed limit they cant make any money!, its still against the law even if we think the speed limit is wrong. We have a road near us, a big long straight about a mile long with a few roads off it into industrial areas and its a 30 limit. I think it could be a 50 quite easily but i dont drive at 50 because its night/dry/quiet/I disagree with the limit or because it incites me to speed. |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 19th, 2006, 12:29pm "Research identified that over 70% of drivers in one study admitted to speeding and in other studies (Webster & Wells) the figure was 85%. Drivers still distinguish between 'ordinary, safe speeding drivers' and 'dangerous speeding drivers'. By many, speed is almost approved of - people can handle it, it's often necessary and many enjoy it - driving at 40mph in a 30mph zone was seen in one study as more acceptable than dropping litter " 'Theres the reason behind the speed limits!' wrong, totally wrong, these are the consequence of speed limits imposed many decades ago. i would think that 80% of us find the speed limits in some areas totally inadequate, and i dont understand there being a problem with that opinion. unfortunately the figures you've quoted might be accurate, they might not, but they're not from an independant source. a girl i know in the midlands area like myself has a bike and car, she lives in a village miles from anywhere so enjoys her daily commute on her motorbike. theres a road she uses, 50 limit, she says 60 would be fine, but she doesnt speed because like most she cant afford to lose her licence. last summer she went on holiday, going to work on her first day back she was on this road doing 48/50 when she suddenly noticed the tell tale double flash behind her. further down the road theres a new speed sign stating 40. while she had been away the speed limit had changed and a scamera put up. she admits that she obviously passed a new speed sign before the scamera (she checked this on her way home). theres 2 ways of looking at that; 1) being a road user, especially on 2 wheels, she should've been more aware. 2) its a road shes used for years, knows the speed limit, knows every bend etc. i dont know the road myself, but as she says why, on a road in the country, no schools etc with no accident record has the limit suddenly been dropped to 40 with a camera put up? she spoke to some locals who said in the first 10 days of the camera being put up there were 3 accidents, only minor that didnt involve other cars, but still accidents. she got fined, she didnt get any points (so her licence is still clean), she was given the option of points or an afternoon in a classroom being dictated to about driver awareness, she opted for the latter which cost her a days pay. |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 19th, 2006, 3:35pm How can you say that is wrong?? There are literally hundreds of independant surveys on the above (Google, sadly ive read a large number of them :)) though it doesnt take much working out. hitting a child at 40 isnt more likely to kill them that hitting them at 30?? If you read my last post i AGREED with the fact that some speed limits are too low AND i agree with your friend with the bike who reckons the limit could be higher but it wasn't, it was lowered (which they would have advertised in the local media as they are legally bound to do) and the speed limit signs were showing, so yes maybe it could be higher but she was still over the limit. I'm sure you've all sat on the big motorways in the traffic, everyone doing 80-100 and the traffic flowing fine, I actually think theres a case for the limit being raised on certain roads but UNTIL they are we deserve all we get if we break them |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by TiberiuS on Oct 19th, 2006, 5:10pm I still don't think we're understanding each other :). No, speed limits aren't meant as a target but they are badly enforced. On one hand you get the unlit country lanes with 'national speed limit' (i.e 60mph and barely enforced) and on the other you have modern, well lit, wide roads away from built up areas where the limit is kept way too low. Road signing is poor enough anyway and cameras are placed where they are likely to earn most revenue (like on dual carriageways) where people regularly stray over the limit, the camera partnerships don't give a cuss about road safety or fatalities, only with profits. The favourite hiding places for camera vans are on the remote roads where there is little or no indication of the max speed and drivers are more likely to stray a few miles over without being a danger to anybody. Most accidents on the A12 (I use the A12 regularly) happen in rush hour when it is so thick with traffic there's not a hope in hell of getting to 70mph, people tailgating and cutting in and out of lanes cause most of the carnage but you never see anybody enforcing it. Drive down the same road off peak when there's barely another car in sight and there's often a camera patrol sitting there, sorry Highlander but that's not done for the good of road safety. Seems unfair that someone who goes over the limit on a clear road away from a built up area gets a harsher penalty than some oik who screams around with no respect for anybody else. Regards, Bruce :) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 19th, 2006, 5:19pm i said its wrong because you think thats the reason speed limits are there is because research has indentified that over 70% of people in a survey basically believe the speed limits imposed are inaccurate. i believe that to be totally wrong, i think that peoples view of the speed limits is a consequence of inadequate speed limits that were set in place a long time ago. the point i was making about my friend was based on principle, yes, when she was riding down the road she should've been more aware, and no it doesnt matter if its mentioned in the local press, no one is obliged to read the local press or any press. the point is the principle behind putting the camera there, no schools, junctions, accident black spots etc just an ordinary road (ok, theres no real such thing), so why put it there, simple, to make money even though there's enough evidence to show that camera placement can cause accidents. like you say about the motorway we've all been there, i tend not to go over 70 these days, as i hold a pcv licence i cant afford to lose it. a few years ago i attended a met police bikesafe course, think it was 30 quid for a whole days training, excellent value, best 30 quid i've spent. it was with traffic police on bikes, great blokes, you go out and they observe you on 1 to 2 basis after you do some classroom work. the classroom work was all about safety, how to be safe; road position, reading the road ahead etc, so we went out, everything was fine. after lunch more class work, but this time more on fun, getting the most out the vehicle safely i.e. braking into corners on gears rather than brakes, and 'making progress' safely. the question of speed arose, they just said what of it, in accidents speed isnt always the big issue people think, but ignorance and stupidity is. we then went out for another ride which was interesting as they'd told us they werent concerned about us breaking speed limits as long as it was safe and not stupid. it did feel weird doing 80 with a police bike in tow knowing he was ok about it. back in the classroom they said if we (or anyone) does a course like IAM's or similar, you will be taught how to drive in excess of speed limits more safely than someone who stays within them but cannot read the road ahead etc. |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 19th, 2006, 5:20pm Yep, thats fair enough but its not unfair if you break the law and get caught :) http://img247.imageshack.us/img247/6788/pcd13b110kj8.gif (http://imageshack.us) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 19th, 2006, 5:35pm where's the peoples hero captain gatso these days lol |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 19th, 2006, 5:36pm one of the best pictures i saw of a speed camera had piggybank written on it... |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 19th, 2006, 5:44pm Captain Gatso was good lol, they used to put tyres over them and burn them |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 19th, 2006, 6:08pm yeah, what happened to him? dont think he got caught |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by TiberiuS on Oct 19th, 2006, 6:11pm lol Highlander, I knew you'd be back on here soon ;) @ Taliban: Yes, I agree with you about the bike safety courses, it cost me £1200 to learn how to drive, my instructor was a gem but even he couldn't give me the amount of driving experience he felt new drivers needed on the road. The car driving test isn't thorough enough, there is no requirement to have any experience on fast roads if the test route doesn't use any and the theory test is a walkover too. An honest lesson from experience: The first time I drove on a motorway a few days after getting my licence I nearly had an accident because I overtook and cut in too early, all because I had never driven at 70mph on a dual carriageway road before. I was dog tired from the long drive and I make double sure now that it will never happen again. It should be law that new drivers get granted their licence on condition that they attend an advanced driving course, fast roads, bad weather and the like, this would save some of the carnage on the roads. I've been driving for 4 years now with no prangs but I still think the test should be more thorough. Regards, Bruce. |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by dh_dove on Oct 19th, 2006, 7:08pm HI All 1 Highlander, nice picture, AGAIN I SAY visit www.speedcam.co.uk if you're following this thread. 2 Here's my bugbear.......... Mr. (or Mrs.) 44mph. I commute 25 miles on an A-road through the Cotswolds (I know lucky, lucky me!!!!) This A road is mainly national limit single carriageway ie 60 mph, but there are 30 40 and 50 limits along the way for villages, busy crossroads etc, fair enough. Don't I just love to follow Mr 44mph. He does 44 mph in the sixty limit, 44 mph in the forty limit, 44 mph in the thirty limit............. Whilst not breaking the speed limit in the sixty zones this guy causes more accidents or near accidents than anyone speeding due to the frustration that other drivers have. Speed cameras will NOT catch him In the lower limits, to me, he's not only a speeding motorist he's a P!ss Poor driver. The really frustrating and annoying thing is they have cloned thousands of him!!!!How can there be so many unaware idiots around (Hope this is not you being described dear reader, if it is CHANGE YOUR WAYS) NB Usually drives a new or nearly new "sensible" saloon car, I think he may be trying to save fuel or something????? Thanks for letting me get that off my chest :) DH Dove |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Kjetil S on Oct 19th, 2006, 8:09pm on 10/19/06 at 18:11:46, TiberiuS wrote:
It is in Norway. In order to get a lisence we have to have x hours driving when it's dark, x hours on ice, and x hours on fast roads. (A while since I got my lisence now, so I don't remember the exact number) Oh, and almost forgot. We also have to go through training in how to overtake a vehicle safely. |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by TiberiuS on Oct 19th, 2006, 8:25pm D@mn good idea, it should be made the same over here. It's ok for me now, having a few years experience but the roads are getting more crowded all the time and the level of training drivers get in the UK is too focused on textbook rules and regs and not enough on real driving/conditions. I also think that some kind of first aid should be included and a skidpan course in the event of getting a blowout or losing control on ice, would cut the number of deaths on our roads quite a bit me thinks. ::) 22 years old and becoming a grumpy old codger already...ahhh... Regards, Bruce. :) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Baz on Oct 19th, 2006, 8:43pm everyone knows the quickest way to overtake or get past stationary traffic when you are in a hurry is to put the blue lights and sirens on! |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by LiverpaulH on Oct 20th, 2006, 9:00am Nice one dove, that is one of my major bugbears mr 44mph who doesn't change his speed including when passing horses and in a d restricted or a 40 limit. They then join a motorway and sit in the middle lane causing immense hold ups and frustrations. 30 years of no accidents, but has caused incalculable numbers of them! Ho hum. Paul |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by dh_dove on Oct 20th, 2006, 6:48pm Paul You got it, apparently they never look in their rear view mirrors either and so can't see the half a mile of traffic behind them.....there again perhaps they do and wonder why all those people are going to the same place as them ::) DH Dove |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Penguin on Oct 24th, 2006, 3:51pm Seems I've come in for a bit of stick over my views about speed limits being useless for saying how dangerous a road is because they are often set too low for revenue raising. (Some posts back in this thread now). I'm affraid I am resolute on this. Some speed limits are deliberately set too low either to raise revenue or for other political reasons that have nothing to do with road safety. Speed limits should be an indiciation of the road conditions. A street should not have a 30mph sign on it unless it is actually unsafe to exceed 30mph. Similarly there are plenty of NSL roads especially out in the countryside where 60 is not a safe speed at all. But as far as speed enforcement goes the whole policy is wrong. Speed enforcement can only take place on roads that most drivers speed. If most drivers think it's safe to speed on any given road (and there aren't hundreds of crashes) then the road should get a higher limit, not a speed camera. It is on roads where most drivers would not speed (but idiots would) that need to be enforced, but I guess there aren't enough idiots to pay for Speed Camera Partnerships. Penguin |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 24th, 2006, 4:44pm on 10/24/06 at 15:51:27, Penguin wrote:
I reckon I could hit 100 on some 30 limit streets and slow down quite safely but then I'm looking out for kids who dont know how "dangerous" the road is.... Theres no such thing as a dangerous road, only a dangerous driver.. |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Oct 24th, 2006, 4:48pm oh gawd we're off again ::) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 24th, 2006, 5:10pm ;D |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by LiverpaulH on Oct 25th, 2006, 11:29am Ive agreed with you penguin, and the policy does stink, with the inherent dangers of unsafe/challenging roads being ignored due to the cost effectiveness issue (ie not enough speeders) and safer more revenue raising roads being targetted (plenty of speeding due to inexcusibly low limits) does nothing for road safety but plenty for the bank balances of partnerships, police forces and the government. Anyhow whats wrong with a bit of debate! ;D ;D Paul 8) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Oct 25th, 2006, 11:59am I'll say it again... there arent dangerous roads only dangerous drivers! Someones going to post a link to some road with a mineshaft suddenly appearing in it arent they ;) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Baz on Nov 1st, 2006, 12:07am Not quite..... but this is funny!! http://www.nothingtoxic.com/media/1161665727/Bad_Day_at_the_Lube_Shop |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Spannerdemon on Nov 1st, 2006, 5:31am Holy SH*T. !!! God I bet THAT was expensive! Is this one of those days where you take your car to the garage, and you get it back with more problems than when they started work on it. Quote:
You're right...................Another Retard!! ;D ;D ;D ;D |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Nov 1st, 2006, 8:45am Nah, just a woman driver ;) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Spannerdemon on Nov 1st, 2006, 10:33am And it's going to take a braver man than ME to agree with that pal!! }{ }{ }{ Message from my wife................ {} {} {} |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by LiverpaulH on Nov 6th, 2006, 2:22pm on 11/01/06 at 00:07:56, Baz wrote:
Superb, what a useless twitstick!! Paul 8) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by taliban on Nov 6th, 2006, 3:27pm pmsl |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by stafford on Nov 11th, 2006, 9:07pm So after 6 pages and 76 replies where are we... The country is still run by gangsters..they just kill you with stealth .. |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by Highlander on Nov 11th, 2006, 11:28pm Only if you drive over the limit ;) |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by stafford on Nov 12th, 2006, 11:06pm :-/ |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by johndyork on Dec 29th, 2006, 8:41pm A few thoughts - never had a speeding fine in 36 years but probably break the speed limit by at least 10% + 2 on every journey - if there were say 'average speed' cameras in my area I KNOW I would keep the speed limit to the letter! We all have the best intentions but sometimes it takes a little threat to encourage compliance. The system is pretty tolerant overall and I would imagine the system is more than self funding and utilises technology to not take police time from other tasks. Now how much police time does drunken behaviour, football matches, hooliganism, etc take?! I am sure technology will continue to assist in reducing these also. Cheers. johndyork |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by dh_dove on Dec 29th, 2006, 8:48pm OH DEAR Here we go again.................................................................................................................................. Happy New Year Everyone ;D DH Dove |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by sector-9 on Dec 30th, 2006, 1:18am There's a stretch of dual carriageway on my route home from work which has been NSL all my life. A few months ago it was put down to 50mph. Sure, there were accidents on that road, but that was down to it being poorly signed so people who didn't know the road would brake and switch lanes at the last second (and of course, either get hit from behind or the side). Making it 50mph has made an improvement in that people have more time to react and of course, the accidents are "less serious", but the signs haven't been changed and that would have made a bigger difference without inconveniencing EVERY vehicle on that road. If you want to put it to the test yourself then drive up the A52 towards Nottingham (from the A52/A60 roundabout on the south side of the city) and you'll see the problem yourself - the signs imply the right lane is for the ring road and the left lane is for the city centre - in actual fact both lanes are the ring road but so many unfamiliar drivers try pulling into the right hand lane just yards from the concrete barrier where they split (the signs are too close to this barrier and should indicate both lanes for ring road) and that's what causes the accidents. Beyond the infamous Clifton bridge, the 50mph limit continues all the way to the 40mph limit 3/4 mile away; previously the whole stretch was 70mph. The road hasn't changed in layout over the last decade or so, it's a dual carriageway with no housing or footpaths running alongside, so why do we now all have to go 20mph slower?! If I were cynical I'd say that it won't be long before we extend the existing SPECs system to this stretch too (Nottingham regards cars as a plague to be stamped out). It's now becoming worthwhile covering my number plates safe in the knowledge that I'm immune from the cameras and there's so few police on the roads that the chance of being caught are diminishing. Darren |
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Title: Re: Thieving T@ats Post by dh_dove on Dec 30th, 2006, 6:48pm Darren Last summer en-route from Bristol to Lincoln Jctn 24 was closed. No probs, as a former Uni student (seventies) I took the A52 thru town. Interesting layout............... but navigated it no probs with Road- Angel to help. Then thought I'd cut thru Slab Square and take in the old sights (Pubs) and down past the Vic. centre. NEARLY RAN INTO A TRAM!!! Quite a shock when you're not expecting it and believe me he was taking no prisoners. OOPS! DH Dove |
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