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        General >> News >> The Dreaded Ball-Joints
        
(Message started by: PJDavis on Dec 1^st, 2012, 6:29pm)

Title: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by PJDavis on Dec 1^st, 2012, 6:29pm

Right, I'll try to continue with the problem but don't make any promises. I might not get any further than Stuart did, but will try.

I too have just ordered a Probe 93-98 ball joint. I got the measurements of this from the internet and it does look and measure-up very like the Scorpio item. I shall this week hopefully at work extract a ball-joint from an old wishbone and see how things progress. I shall of course wait for the Probe joint to arrive and compare it for height and where the groove for the holding pin are in relation to each-other. I'm also in touch with an Indian manufacturer 'classicexparts' (corny I know) and they say that manufacture after receiving precise measurements 'should' be no problem.....famous last words!

It's not my intention to be treading on any previous tryers toes, just it seems still to be a need, and I have the workshop facilities on-hand to perform the change.

If, (and just now it's a big 'if') things work out and even if that means a bit of machining, and I can get a joint to fit and work, then I'm prepared to do a 'turn-around' of wishbones. We shall see what happens.

I'll post up here as things happen.

Peter

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by Simmo on Dec 2^nd, 2012, 8:45am

Peter, I'm sure we all appreciate your looking in to this issue as, if successful, it could save more of these great cars. Hopefully the PJ 'BJ' mod will one day enter the list of 'fixes' which exist as a result of members skill and tenacity. Good luck ;)

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by PJDavis on Dec 10^th, 2012, 4:18pm

Bad News I'm afraid folks! I got the Probe ball joint this morning and on first look it's a perfect match. The shaft that goes into the hub and the cotter-pin are exactly the same, which isn't surprising seeing as the hub that the probe uses between 1993 and 1998 is the exact one as the Scorpio. But the wishbone that the probe uses has a removable ball joint, (obviously) because it's wishbone has a wider base. That's the important bit...because the ball-joint for the probe has a much larger body, with a 43mm spline. The hole for the scorpio ball-joint is only 35mm slightly tapered. Unfortunately there isn't enough 'meat' on the wishbone to bore the hole any bigger, the most I could bore the hole would be maybe to 38mm, and that would be stretching it. I went to my local friendly Dingbro this afternoon, and had a look around the selves to see if there was anything close. The closest I could find was for a 2006 Renault Senic, but although is had the right size of body, (only just it was 38.5mm) it had a 14mm shaft that was shorter. The scorpio ball-joint shaft is 17.5mm.

I spoke very briefly on the phone to 'Classicexparts' in India, and they would take the measurements and see what they could do, but they say they think the body is too small for the ball inside with a thick shaft like that. Mind-you, they also say that they would expect an order minimum of 200 units.

So, for now it's over to the German QH site and about £77 a side.

I shall keep looking for a ball-joint but don't hold out much hope. Classicexparts reckon this is a bespoke unit that uses a fairly standard ball and shaft into a narrow body, and that's why it's sold as a unit inclosed in the wishbone.

QH wouldn't give out any information whatsoever, except to say they can readily supply the whole wishbone unit for the car.

Peter

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by Simmo on Dec 10^th, 2012, 4:53pm

Peter, I'm sure everyone would wish to thank you for your sterling and extensive efforts to resolve this issue. I regret to say that, at this stage, it seems we've hit a brick wall. Once again thank you for your work on this. Regards, Mike. :(

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by amigafan2003 on Dec 10^th, 2012, 8:05pm

You could use a balljoint with a thinner shaft - just press an insert into the hub carrier.

That's what I did with my Westfield - small insert into the Sierra hub carrier and it uses Ford Transit ball joints.

Wonder if this (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/HONDA-PRELUDE-1997-2001-REAR-UPPER-SUSPENSION-ARM-BALL-JOINT-35MM-/300580732015?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item45fc01fc6f) would be close?

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by PJDavis on Dec 10^th, 2012, 9:32pm

on 12/10/12 at 20:05:13, amigafan2003 wrote:

I had considered that very option. I could easily make a bush and slip it over the shaft of a ball-joint that had every measurement right except the shaft, I could even make the groove for the cotter-pin although it would be very time consuming. Firstly I would need to find such a ball-joint, and if I was doing that I might as well just keep continuing looking for a ball-joint with all the right measurements. More importantly, (And I've built at least four kit-cars, and helped with others) if I was to make a change like that to the manufactured item, I then 'become' the manufacturer of that item, and therefore liable for anything that happens to that item. It's fine to build a kit-car, and make changes, and then use that kit-car, because it's YOU that's using it, even when you sell that kit-car on, it's up to the person that purchases it to accept the build. But to change a manufactured item in such a way, and allow others to use it without first proving it's worth through extensive test is a chapter for litigation! Just imagine for some reason that joint didn't withstand a road impact of the same magnitude that the original joint would have, just because of my adjustments. Do you think I could live with that possibility? It may sound extreme, but I teach Health and Safety legislation, and I've read some weird reports.

I shall continue to look for an answer, but it will take much more time than I originally imagined.

Peter

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by Simmo on Dec 11^th, 2012, 8:10am

Peter, sound advice and reason...as ever. Mike :)

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by PJDavis on Dec 11^th, 2012, 10:53am

After further research for a couple of hours this morning, I still can't find a suitable fitting ball joint. The size of the shaft on the balljiont is 17.96mm, the groove diameter is 14.8mm. The body depth needs to be about 20mm, and the body width to be pressed into the wishbone body can be no more than 38mm. (The Probe body width is 42.56mm with a leading edge of 42.35mm.

It's just a matter of time and research I think, there must be a ballJoint out there because QH Don't manufacture Ball Joints, all they do is assemble pattern parts. I'm now a member of the QH site and still they won't help, (even though I pretended to be making a bespoke suspension set-up for a student project) miserable gits! The research will take time, but once I have a ball-joint of the right body size with the right shaft, (the same as the probe joint) then it's a piece of cake to set up the wishbone on one of the machines at work to ream out (very slightly) the existing hole and press in the new joint.

Peter

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by Simmo on Dec 11^th, 2012, 11:44am

Hang on in there Peter ;). I get the feeling you don't like to be beaten!! ;D Mike

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by Andycan on Dec 11^th, 2012, 4:10pm

You will crack it Peter like they say slow and steady gets there in the end.

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by amigafan2003 on Dec 11^th, 2012, 6:02pm

Quote:

The size of the shaft on the balljiont is 17.96mm

The renault scenic ball joints look tantalizingly close (search ebay for "18mm ball joint" and you'll find loads - they actually measure @ 17.95mm as they aren't interference fit into the carriers).

I've got a wishbone in my boot from the MOT - going to have a play this weekend.

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by PJDavis on Dec 11^th, 2012, 10:56pm

I did exactly as you have said Ami'. I've left a message with one of those sellers to measure the large diameter, and from the top of the shaft to the base. But if it's the same as the Renault one I tried, and I suspect it is, the shaft is too short at the top (from the groove) and the base is far to wide again. We shall soon see!
Peter

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by amigafan2003 on Dec 12^th, 2012, 3:32pm

I think you're right though PJ - there's got to be a ball joint out there somewhere - it's whether it's still being made though.

I'll probably investigate the shim method. this (http://www.stanceworks.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29248) kind of thing goes through MOT's all the time no problem.

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by Simmo on Dec 12^th, 2012, 4:06pm

Peter, is there any merit in trying This site (http://www.jcwhitney.com/ball-joints/ford/c11300m29j1s19.jcwx)? :)

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by PJDavis on Dec 12^th, 2012, 10:44pm

on 12/12/12 at 16:06:00, Simmo wrote:

Peter, is there any merit in trying This site (http://www.jcwhitney.com/ball-joints/ford/c11300m29j1s19.jcwx)? :)

Aye, that's one of the yank sites I've sent the measurements to, no reply as yet. But I suspect they are just a supplier rather than a manufacturer. Just a waiting game.

Peter

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by PJDavis on Dec 15^th, 2012, 1:51pm

Still no reply from that Yank site, or another that I've tried. I'm trying to be careful in that I'm not quite telling the truth about why I require them. What I'm saying is, I'm a lecturer in charge of a higher-national group that are putting together a large ROV as a project, and these are the required size of ball-joint needed for the manufactured control-arm. I'm of course using my college address for the reply. It could be legit as well, we do have students building ROV's. Reason being, like QH, they would want to sell the full-size part.

We shall see.

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by Simmo on Dec 15^th, 2012, 2:00pm

Softly softly catchee monkey!!. ;D Good luck Peter. :)

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by PJDavis on Dec 17^th, 2012, 1:06pm

Sent enquiries to three more companies. Federal-Moog, Meadway Linkages, China-suspension-joints. All will have a detailed picture with dimensions added. There aren't very many manufacturers, plenty of suppliers that say they're manufacturers but just supply the joints. Just waiting now. I'll try and post my picture with dimensions on here later-on.
Peter

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by Simmo on Dec 17^th, 2012, 1:09pm

Thank you for your efforts Peter. :)

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by PJDavis on Dec 17^th, 2012, 8:08pm

Had an answer from the UK site Meadways, they can't help, they do more industrial manufacture. Below is the picture I've sent to the manufacturers with all the required dimensions. If someone comes up with something, it's my intention to put the wishbone on the milling machine and machine out the hole to the correct 'press-fit' size. It would be even better if a supplier could supply a top-clip-type. I was at my friendly Dingbro again today for a couple of hours, no luck, closest was a Merc-Van. You'll notice the splined press-in area of the pictured ball-joint has 34mm to 38mm, 38mm is the safest large hole I could mill-out.

Had to use a media-link. Photobucket playing-up!

http://i771.photobucket.com/albums/xx357/PJJDavis123/DSCF3408_zps14d49c65.jpg

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by PJDavis on Dec 17^th, 2012, 10:05pm

Another thought occurred, if someone is able to supply me with a good ball-joint, and supposing there isn't a minimum number that has to be manufactured, does anyone have thoughts on how many I should get? I thought a Dozen to start with, they would maybe only be £20 each as a bespoke unit. I'm not perturbed about paying out for them, I would see it as a personal investment. I would also like members to understand that if this works out, and I can get the correct ball-joint, I will not be charging for my services. I will charge only for the cost of the Ball-Joint, and postage to return the completed unit bearing in mind I'm North Scotland. I really hope this works out, I hope to receive wishbones, strip them, sand-blast them, ream the hole to right size, spray the wishbone a colour, press in the new joint and return to the sender. I'm hoping to charge as little as £30, but it could be as much as £50 depending on the Ball-Joint price only. Also bear in mind that the sender would need to probably replace the two rubber bushes, and cover the cost of the postage to me (North Scotland) does that take the price too close to the £80 each for the units from Germany? Although one would still have to add the price of the large rubber bush to the German price, (how much are they?) I would also expect the sender to make a donation to the site. I hope members would see this as fair.

Your thoughts would be appreciated before I start to initiate costs.

Peter

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by PJDavis on Jan 6^th, 2013, 8:00pm

I'm still active on this. I've had a couple of replies from a couple of companies. one has no intention of supply unless at least 200 units are purchased, and each unit at a cost of approx £25. Other manufacturers seem only interested in bespoke, whereas I have been trying to explain that all I need is a match with a close unit, and then the part number. There's a few returns I'm waiting for, and I'm hoping for more response once the festivities are completely over.
Peter

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by Scorpio_Mike on Jan 6^th, 2013, 9:25pm

I have 3 pairs of good used front suspension arms if anyone needs them...and somewhere a brand new pair complete with all the bushes.

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by PJDavis on Feb 3^rd, 2013, 6:32pm

Big set-back from Federal-Moog by email. They say that they won't do bespoke ball-joints for Education, and suspect I'm trying to manufacture a 'Kit-Car' for production!
I'm still onto an American company that respond very slowly, and because the bigger older designs of yank car have 'older' type suspension, there is chance of a match. The 80's Mustangs and Falcons are quite close. Incidently the ball-joint on the end of the control arm of the last of the Escort range is really close, and I've been asking about which ball-joint is used for this application. It's so blasted annoying that companies take so long to swing ponderously into action. :-[

Title: Re: The Dreaded Ball-Joints
Post by Glyn on Feb 4^th, 2013, 12:34am

Keep at it Peter-you are doing a grand job !
Glyn